in the real dmx mixers, the difference from a live use and the theatre use is the manual crossfade possibilities from sequential scenes with one or (better) 2 dedicated faders.
usually they are 2, one(usually the left one) used to move the current scene to 0 and the second one (the right one) used to move the next scene in the sequence, to full.
in some old mixer like the strand 520, the crossfade work only when you move the faders from the bottom to the top, using the left fader to move the actual scene to 0 and the right fader to move the next scene at full, the top-down movement cause (after that the faders had reach both the end of the top movement) the charging of the next scene in the right fader, and moving the current scene in the left fader...
in the large part of the other mixers, when you reach the top or the bottom with both faders the shift of the scenes on the faders is automatic.
it's possible to have a similar function in QLC+?
it's fundamental to have it if you need a manuan controll on the scene fade time in a sequence, expecially in theatre show where (usually) the actors don't follow every time the same rytm and a fade time isn't programmable.
would be a good idea got the option to have a "one fader crossfade" with a linear crossing of the fades of the scenes for who must use the mouse, but would be perfect to have 2 indipendent faders for who can use a real device to make the input or can use a tablet or a multi-touch touchpad to could make a non linear crossfade.
Crossfade slider/sliders
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Magnus Persson
I wholeheartedly second this.
Manual crossfade is imho a crucial feature for theatre use. The only obvious one missing in qlc+, as far as I can see.
Manual crossfade is imho a crucial feature for theatre use. The only obvious one missing in qlc+, as far as I can see.
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Matthew Marks
Having never used a real lighting controller I managed without it, but I can see how useful it would be, not only to be able to react in real time but also so that you don't have to set up lots of fade times beforehand.
However, a feature which seems obvious to me is the ability to tweak scenes live. If there is a way of doing that I haven't found it yet. Point 4 in my posting [here](http://sourceforge.net/p/qlcplus/discus ... /1ddb86f5/).
I can appreciate that it must be a bit of a nightmare to put theatre-type functionality into software that was never intended to do that in the first place, so plaudits to Massimo on what he has managed to do so far.
However, a feature which seems obvious to me is the ability to tweak scenes live. If there is a way of doing that I haven't found it yet. Point 4 in my posting [here](http://sourceforge.net/p/qlcplus/discus ... /1ddb86f5/).
I can appreciate that it must be a bit of a nightmare to put theatre-type functionality into software that was never intended to do that in the first place, so plaudits to Massimo on what he has managed to do so far.
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Michael Clements
A manual crossfader, although it can be useful, is being overated here, I think. It's quite difficult to get a smooth transition between scenes manually, especially with longer (say 5 sec +) fade times.
Most of the time, given a reasonable standard of acting*, timed crossfades work very well in drama and musicals, although, as I pointed out elsewhere, qlc+ lacks a wait time parameter for delaying the start of either the incoming or the outgoing channel's fading during a crossfade.
The crossfader would have to be a one slider affair for those controlling qlc+ with the mouse, although a conventional 2 slider implimentation would be better with a fader wing.
* One might add: also given reasonable cooperation between the director and the lighting designer!
Most of the time, given a reasonable standard of acting*, timed crossfades work very well in drama and musicals, although, as I pointed out elsewhere, qlc+ lacks a wait time parameter for delaying the start of either the incoming or the outgoing channel's fading during a crossfade.
The crossfader would have to be a one slider affair for those controlling qlc+ with the mouse, although a conventional 2 slider implimentation would be better with a fader wing.
* One might add: also given reasonable cooperation between the director and the lighting designer!
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Magnus Persson
I agree, for longer transition times timed crossfades work better.
I also agree with the need for a one slider mode/version for mouse controll or where few (good) sliders are available (Cross fading with a mouse seems rather awkward though. But that might just be me.) Two large sliders close together like on the older purpose built boards would be really nice. But I don't know if such hardware is even available.
How do you (Michael and others) feel about a self centering joystick-like controll used as a speed controll for the transition? If memory serves the old Avab Expert theatrical boards used a one axis joystick. I only used one for a few weeks a long time ago but i remember that it was much more intuitive than I expected. Also, joysticks are cheap and easy to come by.
On a personal note Michael: Do you really think actors should be expected to time the performance exactly the same from night to night. I am not saying you are wrong, i'm just curious. (I have worked almost exclusvly with amateur companies. Sometimes I am happy they remember the light cues at all.
)
I also agree with the need for a one slider mode/version for mouse controll or where few (good) sliders are available (Cross fading with a mouse seems rather awkward though. But that might just be me.) Two large sliders close together like on the older purpose built boards would be really nice. But I don't know if such hardware is even available.
How do you (Michael and others) feel about a self centering joystick-like controll used as a speed controll for the transition? If memory serves the old Avab Expert theatrical boards used a one axis joystick. I only used one for a few weeks a long time ago but i remember that it was much more intuitive than I expected. Also, joysticks are cheap and easy to come by.
On a personal note Michael: Do you really think actors should be expected to time the performance exactly the same from night to night. I am not saying you are wrong, i'm just curious. (I have worked almost exclusvly with amateur companies. Sometimes I am happy they remember the light cues at all.
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Michael Clements
Hi Magnus,
(Apologies to Massimo - this is completely off the point of developing qlc+)
I only find the joystick on our AVAB Presto useful for pulling selected channels to zero and scrolling through scene lists. Difficult to control it with any precision.
Appropriately timed crossfades almost always work well for scene changes, given that the operator can choose when to press the "go" button while observing the actors. You need to be clear whether the actor's entry cues the lighting or the lighting cues the actor to start acting.
The playback stack also has to be able to skip cues and go back in case the actors really screw up badly!
Occasionally a rapid sequence of complex changes is needed. The have to be agreed with the director well in advance and rehearsed specially and once again, carefully use of the "go" button fine tunes the timing.
(Apologies to Massimo - this is completely off the point of developing qlc+)
I only find the joystick on our AVAB Presto useful for pulling selected channels to zero and scrolling through scene lists. Difficult to control it with any precision.
Appropriately timed crossfades almost always work well for scene changes, given that the operator can choose when to press the "go" button while observing the actors. You need to be clear whether the actor's entry cues the lighting or the lighting cues the actor to start acting.
The playback stack also has to be able to skip cues and go back in case the actors really screw up badly!
Occasionally a rapid sequence of complex changes is needed. The have to be agreed with the director well in advance and rehearsed specially and once again, carefully use of the "go" button fine tunes the timing.
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Massimo Callegari
I understand this is something commonly used in theatres and reading your whole discussion made up my mind about a couple of thing.
Since you are the experts, let's see how this can be done in the most effective way.
1) if the whole stage is "a scene", then Grand Master can get the work done at the moment. So 100% Scene A -> GM fade to 0% -> Scene B -> GM fade to 100%
The side effect though is that if only one light has to stay on, this method doesn't work. That leads me to consideration #2
2) I guess the most used Virtual Console widget you guys use is Cue list. (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I guess you most likely go through scenes sequentially, from the first to the last (correct me again)
Given those 2 points, I can add a fader on the VC Cue list widget left side, that will behave as a "local grand master" for the selected Cue list step.
So basically you will be able to control the intensity of the current scene manually.
I can also add two more buttons for timed fade in/fade out. So, Click & Go !
What do you think ?
Since you are the experts, let's see how this can be done in the most effective way.
1) if the whole stage is "a scene", then Grand Master can get the work done at the moment. So 100% Scene A -> GM fade to 0% -> Scene B -> GM fade to 100%
The side effect though is that if only one light has to stay on, this method doesn't work. That leads me to consideration #2
2) I guess the most used Virtual Console widget you guys use is Cue list. (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I guess you most likely go through scenes sequentially, from the first to the last (correct me again)
Given those 2 points, I can add a fader on the VC Cue list widget left side, that will behave as a "local grand master" for the selected Cue list step.
So basically you will be able to control the intensity of the current scene manually.
I can also add two more buttons for timed fade in/fade out. So, Click & Go !
What do you think ?
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Michael Clements
qlc+ can do most things that are desirable for theatre style playback using button widgets in a solo frame instead of a cue list. See my example and explanation here:
https://sourceforge.net/p/qlcplus/discu ... bdd0/#9334
What can be done this way:
1) Crossfade between any two scenes with the the fade out time for the outgoing scene not necessarily equal to the fade in time of the incoming scene.
2) Crossfade between collections, effects and chasers (although some careful work is needed to get the desired results) and a solo frame within a solo frame might be necessary.
3) Selected fixtures can be faded in or out without effecting the rest by cloning a scene and only changing the intensity of certain fixtures, then attaching the clone to a new button.
4) Selected colour, pan, tilt, gobo etc. values can be reset by crossfading without affecting anything else.
5) In rehearsals one can jump to any scene the director wants or repeat sequences of scenes very easily. (There may be some strange goings on with colour, pan, tilt etc. during the crossfade which won't matter in a rehearsal.)
6) You can "go back" part way through a crossfade by clicking on the previous scene button.
7) Using the grand master inevitably puts a blackout between 2 scenes. If a fade to blackout is needed, I would use a button whose attached scene has zero intensity values. (Apart from the dummy or ghost value as with LTP only buttons, see here:
https://sourceforge.net/p/qlcplus/discu ... 603d/#0d82
What can't be done:
8) There can't be (at the moment) the equivalent of a "go" button for initiating the next crossfade as qlc+ doesn't know what scene you want to fade to.
9) You can't change the speed of a running crossfade or take over the crossfade manually. (Although you could have clones of the incoming scene with different fade times on different buttons, if desperate!). Personally, I could happily live without this.
Possible way to implement a "go" button:
The idea here is that having set up, say, the space bar, to be the go button and a set of buttons in a solo frame, the next cues would found automatically.
One would click on (any) button in the solo frame (in operate mode) so qlc+ knows where to start from.
Either the next cue would be the next button down in a column of buttons or the next right button in a row – user selectable.
Having worked down to the bottom of a column, the next cue would be found at the top of the next right column.
Or similarly, having worked to the right hand end of a row, the next cue would be found at the left hand end of the next row down.
If the buttons were to be moved around the screen it would change the order in which they were selected – the above algorithms would operate strictly on the button's position in the solo frame and not on its attached function.
One could also set up a "go back" control, e.g. backspace, which would initiate a crossfade to the previous cue, the previous cue being found in the exact opposite way of that described above.
The "go" and "go back" controls should override each other during a running crossfade on a latest takes precedence basis.
Having one set of "go" and "go back" controls which could operate on a chosen set of solo frame buttons (if several such solo frames had been created) would be adequate for anything I can think of. Note that the VC in my example show would need a little reorganising to make this work.
https://sourceforge.net/p/qlcplus/discu ... bdd0/#9334
What can be done this way:
1) Crossfade between any two scenes with the the fade out time for the outgoing scene not necessarily equal to the fade in time of the incoming scene.
2) Crossfade between collections, effects and chasers (although some careful work is needed to get the desired results) and a solo frame within a solo frame might be necessary.
3) Selected fixtures can be faded in or out without effecting the rest by cloning a scene and only changing the intensity of certain fixtures, then attaching the clone to a new button.
4) Selected colour, pan, tilt, gobo etc. values can be reset by crossfading without affecting anything else.
5) In rehearsals one can jump to any scene the director wants or repeat sequences of scenes very easily. (There may be some strange goings on with colour, pan, tilt etc. during the crossfade which won't matter in a rehearsal.)
6) You can "go back" part way through a crossfade by clicking on the previous scene button.
7) Using the grand master inevitably puts a blackout between 2 scenes. If a fade to blackout is needed, I would use a button whose attached scene has zero intensity values. (Apart from the dummy or ghost value as with LTP only buttons, see here:
https://sourceforge.net/p/qlcplus/discu ... 603d/#0d82
What can't be done:
8) There can't be (at the moment) the equivalent of a "go" button for initiating the next crossfade as qlc+ doesn't know what scene you want to fade to.
9) You can't change the speed of a running crossfade or take over the crossfade manually. (Although you could have clones of the incoming scene with different fade times on different buttons, if desperate!). Personally, I could happily live without this.
Possible way to implement a "go" button:
The idea here is that having set up, say, the space bar, to be the go button and a set of buttons in a solo frame, the next cues would found automatically.
One would click on (any) button in the solo frame (in operate mode) so qlc+ knows where to start from.
Either the next cue would be the next button down in a column of buttons or the next right button in a row – user selectable.
Having worked down to the bottom of a column, the next cue would be found at the top of the next right column.
Or similarly, having worked to the right hand end of a row, the next cue would be found at the left hand end of the next row down.
If the buttons were to be moved around the screen it would change the order in which they were selected – the above algorithms would operate strictly on the button's position in the solo frame and not on its attached function.
One could also set up a "go back" control, e.g. backspace, which would initiate a crossfade to the previous cue, the previous cue being found in the exact opposite way of that described above.
The "go" and "go back" controls should override each other during a running crossfade on a latest takes precedence basis.
Having one set of "go" and "go back" controls which could operate on a chosen set of solo frame buttons (if several such solo frames had been created) would be adequate for anything I can think of. Note that the VC in my example show would need a little reorganising to make this work.
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Magnus Persson
I don't consider myself to be an expert but I'll do my best to help.
Yes, you are imho quite right. The Cue List might be the *only* widget I'd use.
I think your suggestion 2) is close, but not quite right.
To run a show I would put a number of scenes in a Chaser. Common hold time/duration to infinite, fade in and fade out times per step, direction forward. Use a Cue List wiget, starting on the first scene/cue.
On cue from the action I would press the Next Cue button at appropriate times. On cock ups or encores I might press the Previous Cue button to get back to the previuos scene.
This well as it is in qlc+. And is, I belive, what Michael thinks is appropriate for almost all situations.
Putting a crossfade slider/unit on the Cue List widget is a good idea. (Much better than the solutions i have been toying with.)
A conventional implementation, as Michael mentions above, would consist of two sliders side by side one with 100% at the top one with 100% at the bottom. Sliding both sliders from one end to the other (up or down) together at an even pace is is the same thing as pushing the Next Cue button with the same fade out time for the current scene and fade in time for the next.
The slider that starts at 0% controls the next scene. The slider that starts at 100% controls the current scene. When you reach the end, the slider that is now at 0% is changed to control the next scene.
Moving the two sliders together isn't possible with the mouse. (As Micheal comments above.) I think a checkbox that locks the sliders together would give the best of both worlds. If you use external hardware you can choose to link the sliders to the same or different hardware sliders.
A bit of history may make things clearer.
Se this picture of a very simple light control board.
The crossfader consists of the two sliders to the right of the board. With the crossfade in the pictured position the top 6 sliders (X) control the 6 output channels. If you slide the crossfade to the bottom the bottom sliders (Y) controll the outputs.
In its simplest form the crossfade sliders simply act as masters for the two presets (sets of sliders) and output values for each channel are then combined with highest takes precedence. In a more advanced form the crossfade is "dipless" so each channel goes from the value on one preset to the value of the other in proportion to the position of the slider(s).
When running a show the operator would build the next scene on the sliders not currently active. Probably reading from a light script. And then, on cue, slide the crossfade to the other end. Build the next scene on the now unused sliders, slide the crossfade on cue etc.
The largest manual board I used had 36 channels and 3 presets. 108 sliders in total! This obviously doesen't scale to a large number of channels. To handle this computerised or memory boards were invented. (The first used punchcards!) These automated the building of scenes so you could run the show by just sliding the crossfade up and down. (Or with timed transitions if you prefered that.)
Real experts out there: Please feel free to correct any errors in my rant.
To sum up this very long post.
Imho:
Putting a crossfade unit on the Cue List widget is a good idea.
Using a two slider implementation with a checkbox that locks the sliders together would solve the problem of operating it with the mouse.
The crossfade unit should, if possible, operate as a dipless traditional crossfade between the current scene and the next in the chaser. When reaching the end of its travel it should automatically step forward to the next scene.
I think this can coexist with the timed crossfades without problem. Push the Next Cue button, timed crosfade. Slide the slider(s) manual crossfade.
Thanks Massimo for your good work on qlc+ and your interest in making it better for us drama folks to.
Yes, you are imho quite right. The Cue List might be the *only* widget I'd use.
I think your suggestion 2) is close, but not quite right.
To run a show I would put a number of scenes in a Chaser. Common hold time/duration to infinite, fade in and fade out times per step, direction forward. Use a Cue List wiget, starting on the first scene/cue.
On cue from the action I would press the Next Cue button at appropriate times. On cock ups or encores I might press the Previous Cue button to get back to the previuos scene.
This well as it is in qlc+. And is, I belive, what Michael thinks is appropriate for almost all situations.
Putting a crossfade slider/unit on the Cue List widget is a good idea. (Much better than the solutions i have been toying with.)
A conventional implementation, as Michael mentions above, would consist of two sliders side by side one with 100% at the top one with 100% at the bottom. Sliding both sliders from one end to the other (up or down) together at an even pace is is the same thing as pushing the Next Cue button with the same fade out time for the current scene and fade in time for the next.
The slider that starts at 0% controls the next scene. The slider that starts at 100% controls the current scene. When you reach the end, the slider that is now at 0% is changed to control the next scene.
Moving the two sliders together isn't possible with the mouse. (As Micheal comments above.) I think a checkbox that locks the sliders together would give the best of both worlds. If you use external hardware you can choose to link the sliders to the same or different hardware sliders.
A bit of history may make things clearer.
Se this picture of a very simple light control board.
The crossfader consists of the two sliders to the right of the board. With the crossfade in the pictured position the top 6 sliders (X) control the 6 output channels. If you slide the crossfade to the bottom the bottom sliders (Y) controll the outputs.
In its simplest form the crossfade sliders simply act as masters for the two presets (sets of sliders) and output values for each channel are then combined with highest takes precedence. In a more advanced form the crossfade is "dipless" so each channel goes from the value on one preset to the value of the other in proportion to the position of the slider(s).
When running a show the operator would build the next scene on the sliders not currently active. Probably reading from a light script. And then, on cue, slide the crossfade to the other end. Build the next scene on the now unused sliders, slide the crossfade on cue etc.
The largest manual board I used had 36 channels and 3 presets. 108 sliders in total! This obviously doesen't scale to a large number of channels. To handle this computerised or memory boards were invented. (The first used punchcards!) These automated the building of scenes so you could run the show by just sliding the crossfade up and down. (Or with timed transitions if you prefered that.)
Real experts out there: Please feel free to correct any errors in my rant.
To sum up this very long post.
Imho:
Putting a crossfade unit on the Cue List widget is a good idea.
Using a two slider implementation with a checkbox that locks the sliders together would solve the problem of operating it with the mouse.
The crossfade unit should, if possible, operate as a dipless traditional crossfade between the current scene and the next in the chaser. When reaching the end of its travel it should automatically step forward to the next scene.
I think this can coexist with the timed crossfades without problem. Push the Next Cue button, timed crosfade. Slide the slider(s) manual crossfade.
Thanks Massimo for your good work on qlc+ and your interest in making it better for us drama folks to.
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Magnus Persson
Thanks for the answer. And you are quite right this is way of topic.
Sorry for the tangent Massimo.
Sorry for the tangent Massimo.
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Magnus Persson
Your strategy for theatre style playback is interesting. I will take a good look at your example when I have the time. (Thank you for posting.)
A "tab order" and possibility to "tab" forward and back in a solo frame (which is pretty much what you suggest with point 8) above, if I read you correcly) seems to me a usefull adition regardless of if you use your strategy or not.
A "tab order" and possibility to "tab" forward and back in a solo frame (which is pretty much what you suggest with point 8) above, if I read you correcly) seems to me a usefull adition regardless of if you use your strategy or not.
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Michael Clements
1) The check box giving an option to lock the 2 crossfade sliders is an excellent idea.
2) Possibly this is too obvious, but to be clear about how the crossfaders work on a memory desk (usually – there are other implementations):
Call the crossfade sliders A and B.
A and B always have 100% and 0% at opposite ends.
A starts with scene 1 100%, B with scene 2 at 0%
A and B act as independent playback masters for scenes 1 and 2 until both silders reach the opposite end of their travel.
After this A controls scene 2 and B controls scene 3.
The direction in which A and B travel from 100% to 0% reverses.
So A simultaneously loses control of scene 1 at 0% and gains control of scene 2 at 100%
B simultaneously loses control of scene 2 at 100% and gains control of scene 3 at 0%
2) Possibly this is too obvious, but to be clear about how the crossfaders work on a memory desk (usually – there are other implementations):
Call the crossfade sliders A and B.
A and B always have 100% and 0% at opposite ends.
A starts with scene 1 100%, B with scene 2 at 0%
A and B act as independent playback masters for scenes 1 and 2 until both silders reach the opposite end of their travel.
After this A controls scene 2 and B controls scene 3.
The direction in which A and B travel from 100% to 0% reverses.
So A simultaneously loses control of scene 1 at 0% and gains control of scene 2 at 100%
B simultaneously loses control of scene 2 at 100% and gains control of scene 3 at 0%
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Willy_Pinguino
I think that the go button is a good idea, I've assigned 2 keys of my keyboard to the next and prev buttons in the cue list to have a sort of it...
My goal would be have 2 sliders, to controll (and write over) the fade in and fade out times manually, using directly the sliders (with a wing or a phisical control like the Behringer BCF 2000) in this set-up, would be usefull to have a button to switch from automatic and manual control (go button vs slider action), 2 buttons to skip up and down in the cue list without the fade times, one PAUSE/PLAY button to stop the automatic fades and restart it from the pause point (in this case the button to skip can move directly backward or forward to the previous or next cue or maybe can move the fade in 10 or 20 steps...).
Usually in the hardware console, there is the intication about what is the on-line cue and what is the next one... some console have an auto-sequence button to ability or disability the auto sequence function, and a way to move trough the cue list to select the next cue to charge in the next scene slot, and some console can stop the automatic fade when the crossfaders are moved before the go command and automatically switch from the automatic fade to manual fade.
I think that a good idea could be to have an extra column in the cue list in VC where dinamically appear a symbol near the on-line scene and a different symbol near the next scene. In this case the buttons to move up and down, simple can move the symbol (and the selection) of the next scene, and the go button or the faders, moves to the selected scene, and when the auto-sequence is selected, automatically after the end of the fade, the next cue in the cue list, become selected for the next scene.
For the VC and the use without hardware controls, I think that a crossfader like the one that in the DJ mixer fade from bank A to bank B, could be a good solution, but the check box to link the 2 sliders (like the suggestion of Michael Clements) and move them together, probably is the better solution to implement easly the double crossfader and mantain it compatible with simple users too.
My goal would be have 2 sliders, to controll (and write over) the fade in and fade out times manually, using directly the sliders (with a wing or a phisical control like the Behringer BCF 2000) in this set-up, would be usefull to have a button to switch from automatic and manual control (go button vs slider action), 2 buttons to skip up and down in the cue list without the fade times, one PAUSE/PLAY button to stop the automatic fades and restart it from the pause point (in this case the button to skip can move directly backward or forward to the previous or next cue or maybe can move the fade in 10 or 20 steps...).
Usually in the hardware console, there is the intication about what is the on-line cue and what is the next one... some console have an auto-sequence button to ability or disability the auto sequence function, and a way to move trough the cue list to select the next cue to charge in the next scene slot, and some console can stop the automatic fade when the crossfaders are moved before the go command and automatically switch from the automatic fade to manual fade.
I think that a good idea could be to have an extra column in the cue list in VC where dinamically appear a symbol near the on-line scene and a different symbol near the next scene. In this case the buttons to move up and down, simple can move the symbol (and the selection) of the next scene, and the go button or the faders, moves to the selected scene, and when the auto-sequence is selected, automatically after the end of the fade, the next cue in the cue list, become selected for the next scene.
For the VC and the use without hardware controls, I think that a crossfader like the one that in the DJ mixer fade from bank A to bank B, could be a good solution, but the check box to link the 2 sliders (like the suggestion of Michael Clements) and move them together, probably is the better solution to implement easly the double crossfader and mantain it compatible with simple users too.
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Michael Clements
a) The inclusion of a pause/play button is a great idea. The current stop button appears to return you to the start of the cue list.
b) The "go back" button should be able to reverse a running crossfade as well as returning to the previous cue when the next cue is running.
c) As Willy points out, it's very useful to be able to monitor what's going on in a running crossfade (particularly with long crossfade times). Before moving on to some suggestions to accomplish this, there is a difficulty to be resolved.
d) For theatre playback the next cue is a scene most of the time. The AVAB Presto, as an example, has a cue list consisting entirely of scenes and their fade times.
However, each scene in the list can have chasers, macros etc. "attached" which means that they start at the same moment as the scene. During a crossfade the desk monitors the fade and wait times of the scenes only.
Since qlc+ uses the much more flexible "collections" function to start various other functions simultaneously, there is the problem of telling qlc+ which function to monitor during the crossfade.
So I suggest that there could be a checkbox to select one of the functions in a collection to be the one monitored during a crossfade.
Here's my suggestions for features to add to the cue list:
1) Each line would have (assuming a wait time can be added):
step number - wait time – fade in time – hold time – (blank space) - fade out time – function name
or:
step number - (blank space) - fade in time – hold time – wait time – fade out time – function name
depending on how the wait time was set.
The hold time for the scene is set to infinite ("undefined" might be clearer) if intending to start the next scene with the "go" button, otherwise it will start automatically after the hold time.
2) Distinctive background colours could be used for for various lines in the cue list (in operate mode) as follows:
Currently running cue (hold time is being executed) - green
Crossfade running, current and next cue – yellow
Crossfade paused, current and next cue – red
Next cue selected from somewhere else in the list ("go to" – see below) - blue
Colours could be made user selectable and could have a option to flash on and off – some users might prefer this for the paused state.
3) The fade in, fade out, wait times and (finite) hold times would count down to zero as they are executed. Whole seconds is fine for most purposes, but an option to have 1/10th seconds might please some users.
4) "Go to" function:
Click on a line in the cue list – the background turns blue. Clicking on it again or clicking on another line again toggles it off at any time before pressing "go".
Pressing "go" executes a crossfade from the currently running cue to the selected cue. The cue list would then display the two lines one under the other with a yellow background as in other crossfades.
Double clicking on a line would execute a crossfade to that cue immediately in operate mode. In design mode double clicking would enable editing as at present.
Some additional thoughts:
5) I can't see why just one cue list with all the above features wouldn't be sufficient for nearly all users. Only allowing the creation of one cue list (like this) would avoid having to sort out all sorts of potential conficts between cue lists.
6) I think it would be more intuitive if the chaser that constitutes the cue list was constructed in the cue list widget rather than having to construct a chaser in the functions editor and then load it into the cue list widget.
This would also save some time by reducing the number of clicks needed.
Some of the chaser editor options would be unecessary – the cue list chaser would be loop, forward and timings per step.
7) Could the arrows on the previous step and next step widgets point up and down rather than left and right?
b) The "go back" button should be able to reverse a running crossfade as well as returning to the previous cue when the next cue is running.
c) As Willy points out, it's very useful to be able to monitor what's going on in a running crossfade (particularly with long crossfade times). Before moving on to some suggestions to accomplish this, there is a difficulty to be resolved.
d) For theatre playback the next cue is a scene most of the time. The AVAB Presto, as an example, has a cue list consisting entirely of scenes and their fade times.
However, each scene in the list can have chasers, macros etc. "attached" which means that they start at the same moment as the scene. During a crossfade the desk monitors the fade and wait times of the scenes only.
Since qlc+ uses the much more flexible "collections" function to start various other functions simultaneously, there is the problem of telling qlc+ which function to monitor during the crossfade.
So I suggest that there could be a checkbox to select one of the functions in a collection to be the one monitored during a crossfade.
Here's my suggestions for features to add to the cue list:
1) Each line would have (assuming a wait time can be added):
step number - wait time – fade in time – hold time – (blank space) - fade out time – function name
or:
step number - (blank space) - fade in time – hold time – wait time – fade out time – function name
depending on how the wait time was set.
The hold time for the scene is set to infinite ("undefined" might be clearer) if intending to start the next scene with the "go" button, otherwise it will start automatically after the hold time.
2) Distinctive background colours could be used for for various lines in the cue list (in operate mode) as follows:
Currently running cue (hold time is being executed) - green
Crossfade running, current and next cue – yellow
Crossfade paused, current and next cue – red
Next cue selected from somewhere else in the list ("go to" – see below) - blue
Colours could be made user selectable and could have a option to flash on and off – some users might prefer this for the paused state.
3) The fade in, fade out, wait times and (finite) hold times would count down to zero as they are executed. Whole seconds is fine for most purposes, but an option to have 1/10th seconds might please some users.
4) "Go to" function:
Click on a line in the cue list – the background turns blue. Clicking on it again or clicking on another line again toggles it off at any time before pressing "go".
Pressing "go" executes a crossfade from the currently running cue to the selected cue. The cue list would then display the two lines one under the other with a yellow background as in other crossfades.
Double clicking on a line would execute a crossfade to that cue immediately in operate mode. In design mode double clicking would enable editing as at present.
Some additional thoughts:
5) I can't see why just one cue list with all the above features wouldn't be sufficient for nearly all users. Only allowing the creation of one cue list (like this) would avoid having to sort out all sorts of potential conficts between cue lists.
6) I think it would be more intuitive if the chaser that constitutes the cue list was constructed in the cue list widget rather than having to construct a chaser in the functions editor and then load it into the cue list widget.
This would also save some time by reducing the number of clicks needed.
Some of the chaser editor options would be unecessary – the cue list chaser would be loop, forward and timings per step.
7) Could the arrows on the previous step and next step widgets point up and down rather than left and right?
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Willy_Pinguino
too much colors (in my opinion) could be too much heavy to implement... I've suggest the column with the character because I think that could be more easy.
same thing for the next and back buttons... if you use only 2 buttons, up and down, to select the next scene for the "next cue in the crossfade" you can go forward, backward or jump wherever you want easly and maybe with a modifier button like control or shift, you can move the cue in the cuelist changing definitively the cue order in play mode.
you are surely right about the collections of actions... maybe a way to implement it easly could have a three view in the cue list, where we can open the three of a collection and move the action that the crossfade must follow at the top of the three.
If I can ask another feature, using shows in the cue list would be perfect if the audio tracks can be mixed, overlayed or stopped in the crossfade sequence adding special marks in the successive cues...
I think about dance shows...
sometime during a dance performance, some lights follow the rytm but other effects follow movements and positions that can be out of music... let me make an example of my idea...
I can start a song with a crossfade (for example having a show with the song in the 7th place of the cue list) and the track continue to play when I change more cues until in the cue list I don't meet anoder cue (a show with an audio track or simple a special mark that tell at QLC+ if we need a fade out of the track, a pause, a stop or a crossfade with another track or an overlay with another track that start in this show) that could give us a better control with the audio (and maybe in a future, with videos too)
same thing for the next and back buttons... if you use only 2 buttons, up and down, to select the next scene for the "next cue in the crossfade" you can go forward, backward or jump wherever you want easly and maybe with a modifier button like control or shift, you can move the cue in the cuelist changing definitively the cue order in play mode.
you are surely right about the collections of actions... maybe a way to implement it easly could have a three view in the cue list, where we can open the three of a collection and move the action that the crossfade must follow at the top of the three.
If I can ask another feature, using shows in the cue list would be perfect if the audio tracks can be mixed, overlayed or stopped in the crossfade sequence adding special marks in the successive cues...
I think about dance shows...
sometime during a dance performance, some lights follow the rytm but other effects follow movements and positions that can be out of music... let me make an example of my idea...
I can start a song with a crossfade (for example having a show with the song in the 7th place of the cue list) and the track continue to play when I change more cues until in the cue list I don't meet anoder cue (a show with an audio track or simple a special mark that tell at QLC+ if we need a fade out of the track, a pause, a stop or a crossfade with another track or an overlay with another track that start in this show) that could give us a better control with the audio (and maybe in a future, with videos too)
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Michael Clements
1) I think that in user interfaces the most important control or piece of information (at a given moment) should be the most visually obvious on the screen, if possible. That's the point with the colours.
Obviously many compromises have to made in designing interfaces. Some degree of user customisation is desirable, as what's obvious to one person isn't so obvious to another. I'm afraid that I don't have the necessary knowledge of programming to judge the relative difficulty of implementing various different ideas!
2) Up and down buttons are slower in a long cue list than scrolling the window and clicking (for me, at least). If you need to do this in a live performance (when things go wrong!), seconds count.
3) Just to be clear – in operate mode, jumping to a cue out of sequence should simply execute that cue. Any changes to the order of cues in the cue list should be done in design mode, because at the beginning of the first performance of a show, all the cues should be in the right order.
4) I think that the idea of integrating audio cues with lighting cues is great and I can see it being highly useful with sound effects in shows, with audio cues either with or between lighting cues so that each cue starts with a press of the "go" button.
5) If, however, we are dealing with crossfading music tracks, the show manager seems to be a more appropriate tool.
Although I'm no expert on the show manager in qlc+, it looks to me that it might be useful to increase the flexibility of the show playback by adding controls such as:
a) hold a given audio/lighting manually (until the audio track runs out)
b) start the crossfade to the next cue manually before it happens automatically
c) go back to the start of the current cue (in emergencies only!)
Obviously many compromises have to made in designing interfaces. Some degree of user customisation is desirable, as what's obvious to one person isn't so obvious to another. I'm afraid that I don't have the necessary knowledge of programming to judge the relative difficulty of implementing various different ideas!
2) Up and down buttons are slower in a long cue list than scrolling the window and clicking (for me, at least). If you need to do this in a live performance (when things go wrong!), seconds count.
3) Just to be clear – in operate mode, jumping to a cue out of sequence should simply execute that cue. Any changes to the order of cues in the cue list should be done in design mode, because at the beginning of the first performance of a show, all the cues should be in the right order.
4) I think that the idea of integrating audio cues with lighting cues is great and I can see it being highly useful with sound effects in shows, with audio cues either with or between lighting cues so that each cue starts with a press of the "go" button.
5) If, however, we are dealing with crossfading music tracks, the show manager seems to be a more appropriate tool.
Although I'm no expert on the show manager in qlc+, it looks to me that it might be useful to increase the flexibility of the show playback by adding controls such as:
a) hold a given audio/lighting manually (until the audio track runs out)
b) start the crossfade to the next cue manually before it happens automatically
c) go back to the start of the current cue (in emergencies only!)
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Massimo Callegari
Hey guys, can we drag a line on this ?
In the professional way, I would like to gather the specifications of this requirement and then implent them.
I try to refine my understanding and then with your help we can converge on the final solution which can make everybody happy (on this, please have mercy on me..)
- I will place 2 sliders on the left beside of the CUE widget
- one slider (A) for the current cue and one slider (B) for the next cue
- they will have reverse values (0 to 100% and 100% to 0)
- I will place a checkbox to link them
- when sliders are linked, dragging slider A to zero will crossfade with the next cue and when reaching 0 will gain control of the next cue
- I am still thinking of adding also a small button to perform a timed crossfade of a user-given time
So far, this is quite clear. What I don't understand is what this will cope with the cue Fade In time. Should it be ignored in case of manual crossfading ?
In the professional way, I would like to gather the specifications of this requirement and then implent them.
I try to refine my understanding and then with your help we can converge on the final solution which can make everybody happy (on this, please have mercy on me..)
- I will place 2 sliders on the left beside of the CUE widget
- one slider (A) for the current cue and one slider (B) for the next cue
- they will have reverse values (0 to 100% and 100% to 0)
- I will place a checkbox to link them
- when sliders are linked, dragging slider A to zero will crossfade with the next cue and when reaching 0 will gain control of the next cue
- I am still thinking of adding also a small button to perform a timed crossfade of a user-given time
So far, this is quite clear. What I don't understand is what this will cope with the cue Fade In time. Should it be ignored in case of manual crossfading ?
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Magnus Persson
In my opinion:
On your point 1-4:
Yes, good.
On your point 5:
I think you are right on. Just to make sure there is no missunderstanding.
The checkbox *only* function is to lock the sliders together. They will function exactly the same if unlocked and moved together. (For example with two fingers on two physical sliders.)
The sliders work in the same way ragardless of if they are going top to bottom or bottom to top. Slider A controls the current cue going from 100% to 0%. Slider B controls the next cue going from 0% to 100%. When both sliders reach the end of their travel we advance to the next cue. Now slider A controls the new current cue (former next cue) and is att 100% and slider B the new next cue at 0%. All is ready for the next crossfade.
On your point 6:
As far as I am concerned this button already exists. It is the "Next cue" button at the bottom right.
To answer your question: Cue fade in and cue fade out times are both replaced with the manual cross fade. They are relevant for timed crossfades, the ones already performed by qlc+, not manual ones.
With the above covered I would be perfectly happy running drama with qlc+.
On your point 1-4:
Yes, good.
On your point 5:
I think you are right on. Just to make sure there is no missunderstanding.
The checkbox *only* function is to lock the sliders together. They will function exactly the same if unlocked and moved together. (For example with two fingers on two physical sliders.)
The sliders work in the same way ragardless of if they are going top to bottom or bottom to top. Slider A controls the current cue going from 100% to 0%. Slider B controls the next cue going from 0% to 100%. When both sliders reach the end of their travel we advance to the next cue. Now slider A controls the new current cue (former next cue) and is att 100% and slider B the new next cue at 0%. All is ready for the next crossfade.
On your point 6:
As far as I am concerned this button already exists. It is the "Next cue" button at the bottom right.
To answer your question: Cue fade in and cue fade out times are both replaced with the manual cross fade. They are relevant for timed crossfades, the ones already performed by qlc+, not manual ones.
With the above covered I would be perfectly happy running drama with qlc+.
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Michael Clements
Sounds excellent (but possibly not final .....!).
As I see it, all automatic fade times for intensity channels are overridden as soon as the manual crossfaders are moved. The movement of B decides the manual fade in time.
If LTP timings are overridden, there are going to be some strange results. I would have all LTP's executing once only as soon as the crossfaders are moved.
Using a manual crossfade on a collection of functions with different timings is going be a trap for the unwary as well.
As I see it, all automatic fade times for intensity channels are overridden as soon as the manual crossfaders are moved. The movement of B decides the manual fade in time.
If LTP timings are overridden, there are going to be some strange results. I would have all LTP's executing once only as soon as the crossfaders are moved.
Using a manual crossfade on a collection of functions with different timings is going be a trap for the unwary as well.
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Willy_Pinguino
all what you said is right,
about your question, different consoles adopt different ways.
in the Compulite Spark the use is that when you move the crossfader, ever fading time is overwrited. if you launch a crossfade with the go button and during it you move the crossfade faders, the automatic fade stop and follow the faders movements.
in other consoles you must select before the mode of the fade, if automatic (following the recorded times) or manual and for the most of consoles add a standard fade time in every cue (this default fade time is configurablein the console preferences).
like you know, in the manual fade like in the automatic too, the only values affected to the fade are the changed values, the values that don't change from a scene to the other, usually don't change, but when the 2 sliders aren't linked, moving to 0 the 2 faders move all the stage to black out
and ever console got a way to select a non sequential cue to charge in the second fader, one of all the cues stored in the show... please consider the opportunity to use the cue list to select a different cue to charge out of order of the sequence...
in every case, thanks to listen us and our requests
about your question, different consoles adopt different ways.
in the Compulite Spark the use is that when you move the crossfader, ever fading time is overwrited. if you launch a crossfade with the go button and during it you move the crossfade faders, the automatic fade stop and follow the faders movements.
in other consoles you must select before the mode of the fade, if automatic (following the recorded times) or manual and for the most of consoles add a standard fade time in every cue (this default fade time is configurablein the console preferences).
like you know, in the manual fade like in the automatic too, the only values affected to the fade are the changed values, the values that don't change from a scene to the other, usually don't change, but when the 2 sliders aren't linked, moving to 0 the 2 faders move all the stage to black out
and ever console got a way to select a non sequential cue to charge in the second fader, one of all the cues stored in the show... please consider the opportunity to use the cue list to select a different cue to charge out of order of the sequence...
in every case, thanks to listen us and our requests