Why can't we Flash a multiple Scenes at once ?

[pgScorpio]

With a button we can "Flash" a Function (Only for Scenes).

But why can't we Flash a collection of Scenes ?
It would be logical to be able to flash multiple scenes at once too.

[GGGss]

With the help of a loopback channel you could have one flash button (in loopback universe) doing numerous flash buttons in the real universe.
(you will have to bind the loopback channel as input to the flash buttons executing a scene...)

But you can flash a collection - you have to hit the option when binding the scene / collection to a button

[pgScorpio]

With the help of a loopback channel you could have one flash button (in loopback universe) doing numerous flash buttons in the real universe.
(you will have to bind the loopback channel as input to the flash buttons executing a scene...)

But you can flash a collection - you have to hit the option when binding the scene / collection to a button
SH_ 2020-01-28 11.0001.jpg

Situation: I use functions to preset several different LTP channels (modes and/or positions for several fixtures).
I have a button matrix to flash each function separately (48 in total) and I have buttons bound to collections (24 in total) that contain different combinations of these scenes (so changing a combination only requires changing the collection).
These collections works fine with the buttons in toggle mode, but they don't work with the buttons in flash mode so I always have to press these buttons twice to flash the collection.

1) Yes, I could use a loopback to flash multiple scenes at once, but, AFAIK, I can create only ONE combination this way since I can assign only ONE external control to a button.

2) Yes I can bind a collection to a flash button, but, NO, it won't flash the collection ! (as the flash function says it works "only for scenes", and not for collections, this even if the bound collection (only) contains scenes.)

So therefore my question.... Even if the flash function is "only for scenes", why doesn't it work for scenes in a collection ?

[etchonmind]

I second that.

If we follow the idea of creating small simple elements in scenes and combine them in collections for easier overall handling, why does that break the flashing mechanism?

In my case, I use a number of launchpads to play scenes, which allows for quick and easy developing of new combinations, also live performances, sequencing, generative creation via plugins etc. Basically, I want to play my lights like an MIDI instrument, and that does work great with flash mode. Toggling is a pain in the neck in comparison.

But being still new, there may be other ways. I currently think about using MIDI Translator Pro to intercept the Note Off Messages and replace them by a second Note On, which would then toggle a button to off again. But this sounds like a dirty workaround and will probably not work as conveniently. At least it raises complexity and does not sound like proper use of MIDI messages .

One question:
If a toggling button reacts to MIDI incoming, let´s say Note on C2, and it switches between on/off when receiving that signal, is flashing exactly the same, but "on" being mapped to Note On and "off" being mapped to the corresponding Note Off?

[etchonmind]

UPDATE:

I managed to get flashable collections, but I´m still evaluating the setup for stability and timing performance.

Here is what I have done:

1. MIDI signal path:

LP -> SEQ -> MTP -> QLC+
LP = Launchpad
SEQ = Bitwig Studio / Ableton Live / your favourite MIDI sequencer
MTP = MIDI Translator Pro
QLC+ - come on...

The connections between the software packages are done in software by Tobias Erichsens loopMIDI, one virtual cable between SEQ and MTP, another between MTP and QLC. SEQ is optional, you could feed MTP directly from the LP, but I want to play my lights like a synth, record / playback and also create MIDI clips from the sequencer using generative plugins.



2. MTP rules:

Two lines of "code":
1: Incoming MIDI Note On: Forward without change
2: Incoming MIDI Note Off: Do not Forward but send a Note On message with the same channel, pitch and velocity instead.
Overlapping pad play is handled by MTP using local variables



3. QLC setup:
- creates scenes with single devices, single channels, ie scanner1 dimmer, scanner 2 dimmer, scanner 1 shutter, etc.
- organize these scenes in collections, so you get dimmer collections, shutter collections etc
- assign these collections to buttons in virtual console in toggle mode



4. Results
Can play with collections like you play with scenes in flash mode.
Occasional hickups (once every few minutes of finger drumming) where buttons seem to "hang" and reverse their behaviour, ie instead of flashing a collection "on", you flash it "off". Easily cured by mapping a single button to a pad with "stop all functions". Could be caused by bouncing pads, MTP code acting funny or QLC being overwhelmed by too many messages.



5. ToDos
- Add more complexity to collections (deeper nesting, more elements) to test limits
- Add other elements than scenes to collections
- Pinpoint "hanging" collection issues, try to make that error reproducable, so "stop all" fix is not needed.

[nmaddix]

4. Results
Can play with collections like you play with scenes in flash mode.
Occasional hickups (once every few minutes of finger drumming) where buttons seem to "hang" and reverse their behaviour, ie instead of flashing a collection "on", you flash it "off". Easily cured by mapping a single button to a pad with "stop all functions". Could be caused by bouncing pads, MTP code acting funny or QLC being overwhelmed by too many messages.


5. ToDos
- Pinpoint "hanging" collection issues, try to make that error reproducable, so "stop all" fix is not needed.

Hi, thanks for sharing this setup. I've been investigating triggering QLC from Ableton myself and was thinking about using Midi Translator Pro exactly as you described but was worried about a note off message getting missed and a scene staying active. Exactly that seems to be happening in your tests.

So I also thought of mapping a Stop All Functions button to a MIDI note and simply sending that note out from Ableton periodically to keep things in sync. I guess that would work unless that button gets stuck on... EDIT: it doesn't appear that this is a toggle button so it should not ever get stuck. I see this as a good possibility for keeping things in sync.

Another thing I tried which might help the issue a little bit is to put related buttons in a Solo Frame, so that starting the next function turns the last one off, eliminating need for the note off message. This really only works when you're going right from one function to the next though.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the above and whether you've made any additional progress in getting this to be more reliable. I hope to have a fully automated show running this way from Ableton.