Sliders in VC should be able to act like Simple Desk sliders, i.e. overriding the current cue level

[Baer]

Just pushed a new version to my git repository

Slider got two Buttons (a Reset and an EnableAutoReset)

As long as the slider wasn't moved it follows always the scenes value
You can always move the slider away from the scene an override the scene
With reset Button slider is set back to current scene value
With enable Auto reset the override is only active as long as scene value does not change

Hope I'm close enough to what you all hoped for.
Happy testing and let me know any bugs you find.

Additonally: It would be really great if someone can test this click&go stuff for me, because I have never used I can't really tell if everything is working fine.

Next steps will be:
-> Show current Scene Value
-> Add some Visual feedback
-> Make buttons controlable by external control

I'm absolutely okay with it. I assume sliders, which are not controlled by any scene at the moment just do not turn red/indicate control.

Would be happy to make this work, but currently I haven't figured out how to determine if the original zero cames from a szene or from unused So maybe every slider who took controll over the channel (regardless if from scene or noone) seems do get the visual feedback

[shortylight]

Hi Bear,

I just compiled the new version for Windows and it looks very promising. All the tests I did showed the expected behavior. As far as I know the click & go feature everything is doing well. Great work!
Will you also add a switch to the preferences to enable both reset button separately for each fader in the next step?

[siegmund]

Because I'm away at the moment I'll test this on Sunday - still sounds very good to me.

Would be happy to make this work, but currently I haven't figured out how to determine if the original zero cames from a szene or from unused So maybe every slider who took controll over the channel (regardless if from scene or noone) seems do get the visual feedback

Okay, don't mind. Due to the fact, that this slider somehow is in control over the channel and the value before was 0 this is somehow correct.

Will you also add a switch to the preferences to enable both reset button separately for each fader in the next step?

I'll back this, too, but maybe in a different way so we have at most one button at the slider (more is a bit too much I think) and you can select the behavior in the preferences.

For now, have great holidays

[shortylight]

Hi,

just a remark: The monitor feature of QLC+ does not have any impact on the slider's behavior at the moment. The slider follows always the channel value regardless if the checkbox in the preferences is set or not.

Have a nice day.

[Baer]

Will you also add a switch to the preferences to enable both reset button separately for each fader in the next step?

I haven't decided how to activate the functionality in the final version. For testing just the two buttons where the fastest version.
Will think about it when I'm back.

just a remark: The monitor feature of QLC+ does not have any impact on the slider's behavior at the moment. The slider follows always the channel value regardless if the checkbox in the preferences is set or not.

I'm aware of this, this is another point of discussion, and one where we should take Massimo and/or Jano into the loop.

The functionality is more or less a rewrite of the LevelModeSliders behaviour. There the monitoring feature is mandatory to work for the implementation.
We have either the possibiltiy to drop the option for monitoring and have it always on, or i can copy back the whole old functionality, and one can select in the preferences to use the old or the new version.

[mcallegari]

Alright, jumping in. To be honest, I haven't read every single word of this long discussion, but in general, to face a technical change in a software (and before writing a single line of code) the questions that need to be answered are:

1) the motivations - why do we need a change ? What is not working at the moment ?
2) the goal - what is that we want to achieve ? How will users interact with the change ? Does it preserve backward compatibility ?
3) the feasibility - is it even possible to reach the goal ? What is the impact of the change on the code ?
(normally there should be a 4) the timings, but we're not in a hurry, are we ? )

I would like someone (Baer ?) to please summarize this discussion and answer the questions above. If the discussion is still ongoing, then please carry on with it, until you agree on something that makes everybody happy.
Then I can offer my help and knowledge of the code to comment on #3 and eventually go into the techy bits of the code. I believe David can comment too if he's reading this discussion, since he's the one who implemented the slider monitoring.
Also, I would like to remind everyone that the VC Slider monitoring feature is still marked as EXPERIMENTAL, as indicated in the documentation.
The reason is simple: a VC slider in level mode can control several channels, and each channel can have a different value at runtime. Therefore it is impossible to represent multiple levels with a single slider. There is no escape from this limitation.

[plugz]

I believe David can comment too if he's reading this discussion, since he's the one who implemented the slider monitoring.

I believe you're the one who implemented this behavior

[mcallegari]

I believe David can comment too if he's reading this discussion, since he's the one who implemented the slider monitoring.

I believe you're the one who implemented this behavior

Really ?
I remember you posting an animated GIF of something and I got confused with this !
In fact, searching for it, it was solo frame mixing: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8624&p=37833#p37826
I totally am getting too old for this...

[Baer]

Hi Massimo

since I'm currently away (till next weeks sundy) I will give only a short answer, maybe one of the other guyes can give a longer summary, otherwise i will do it if when I'm back.

1. The motivation was to be able to overwrite a scenes value (similar to simple desk sliders) with a level mode slider in monitor mode (+ some cosmetics and behaviour options). Also the monitoing feature has some other drawbacks. (e.g. you are not able to control a monitored channel in HTP mode...)

2. The goal to achieve we summarized on one of the postst (think siegmund was it), difficult to find on phone and currently no access to pc.

For 3. I implemented some kind of prototype on my personal fork of qlc+ ( https://github.com/mgubisch/qlcplus/ ) if you wan't to have a look
The prototype has currently the follwing behaviour (all somehow experimentel, but looks functional from first brief tests)
As long as the slider isn't moved it follows always the scenes value
You can always move the slider away from the scene an override the scene
With reset Button slider is set back to current scene value
With enable Auto reset the override is only active as long as scene value does not change

In the current implementation backwards compatiblity is somehow destroyed. Due to the fact that slider always follews the scene i will not act like a normal HTP slider anymore. But I think I found a solution for this yesterdays evening, where you can even switch of the monitoring.
Therefore backwards compatiblity for not monitored channel should be there, but for monitored channel the behaviour changed in the way described above.

4. I'm not in a hurry (but i can always use my personal branch) for the other guyes I don't know, but due to my limited freetime I think the earliest getting something releaseable is during christmas holidays.


Currently the final usability/user interaction is still in discussion, because first we wan't to check the feasability

Ok that was longer then inteded but more in about one week...

[mlohrey]

If I could add to
1. Motivation
What is not working at the moment?
For live theatre work it is very difficult to make a quick change to a Scene. It may be that a single spot light is too bright and just needs to be adjusted down. I think that those interested in the improved feature, set up VC to mimic a traditional desk, with sliders for each channel. Being able to see the levels for the active scene and then make a quick adjustment is a powerful feature. This can be achieved in other ways it is just too slow.

Massimo said: The reason is simple: a VC slider in level mode can control several channels, and each channel can have a different value at runtime. Therefore it is impossible to represent multiple levels with a single slider. There is no escape from this limitation.

I have thought about this for a day or two.
I don't think it impossible to represent multiple levels with a single slider.
If I could use the analogy of different properties of drawing objects in a drawing program. Let's say you have a square and circle drawn with different line thickness and then select both. In the line properties dialogue it will not be able to display the line thickness as they are both different. Many pieces of software display this conflict with a '?' or just blank. Then, if you then choose a line thickness it is applied to both.

Now, I don't have any understanding of the programming, but if the slider (controlling more than one channel) in monitoring mode could indicate somehow that the levels it was monitoring are different then it would be a visual indication to the operator in that if you adjust the slider then all channels would be set to the same level. This would be analogous to making the objects in my example above all have the same line thickness.

What the visual representation would be I am not sure. This might work

slider_with multiple levels.png (3.08 KiB) Viewed 15300 times

[siegmund]

Okay, if I get things right we basically need to discuss how to design the preferences, especially for preserving backwards compatibility.
I would suggest the following options for the preferences:

• We keep the "monitoring" checkbox in the preferences
  • If not checked, everything behaves as before.
  • If checked, the new behavior is applied.
    --> This preserves backwards compatibility because LTP behavior hast not changed and HTP behavior of a monitoring slider was useless in the past.
• As soon as monitoring is enabled, it is possible to pick from two radio buttons:
  1. Override the selected channels until the Reset button is pressed
  2. Stop overriding and fade to the new value if a new scene is applied to the selected channels
     --> with both options, there is only a Reset button shown in the slider
• Mask for external input (I'm not 100% sure yet where to place and when to hide - ideas?)
• Optional there could be an option to define a fade time to apply if the channel looses control (Reset by button or by scene change)

With the explanations of the others, I hope it is clear enough what we want to achieve (if not feel free to ask).

So far a compliment to Baer for this beautiful and very well-working change - I love it!

Please don't mind me to add a few requests/bugs:

• Personally I would prefer to place the button(s) at the bottom of the slider - Would are the others thinking?
• DMX dump does not recognize the overriden value, but it dumps the scene's one
• If you are in the vc in edit mode, the buttons are somehow still clickable. Don't know if they have any effect but they just shouldn't be clickable at all.
• Bug where the monitoring slider jumps as soon as you click AUTO RST. Please have a look at the attached workspace to reproduce:
  1. Move a slider on the left
  2. Move the corresponding slider on the right
  3. Move the slider on the left again - slider right does not follow (as expected)
  4. Click AUTO RST on the slider on the right - the slider jumps immediately to the value provided by the channel on the left. This is not as expected (at least to me). I would expect the slider to jump after the next scene change.

Thanks again - have a nice week!

[EDIT: Added some bugs/requests]

[mlohrey]

DMX dump isn't working in the current trial.

Tested on MACOSX

[siegmund]

DMX dump isn't working in the current trial.

Tested on MACOSX

Sorry but I don't see how this is related to the current discussion.

Massimo said: The reason is simple: a VC slider in level mode can control several channels, and each channel can have a different value at runtime. Therefore it is impossible to represent multiple levels with a single slider. There is no escape from this limitation.

I have thought about this for a day or two.
I don't think it impossible to represent multiple levels with a single slider.

Though this is a more basic question and not directly depending on the new feature, I would suggest to open another thread on this so we don't get too messy here.

[janosvitok]

DMX dump isn't working in the current trial.

Sorry but I don't see how this is related to the current discussion.

[I didn't test it myself] Maybe Mark wanted to say that if you set value using this new slider, DMX dump stores wrong values.

[siegmund]

DMX dump isn't working in the current trial.

Sorry but I don't see how this is related to the current discussion.

[I didn't test it myself] Maybe Mark wanted to say that if you set value using this new slider, DMX dump stores wrong values.

You're right - thanks for the hint!

Can confirm that this is not working on Xubuntu 14.04 64Bit.

I'll add this to the bug list in my post.

[mlohrey]

Thanks Jano for clarifying my post. You were indeed correct.
I was running short of time and should have been a little more expansive in my explanation. I was testing the ability of the new feature in terms of being able to make an adjustment and then update a running scene.

I believe the managment of channel monitoring mode is fundamental to this new feature as it has to consider the possibility of a slider controlling multiple channels. However, to get a working model, I guess you could simplify the problem and assume that the slider can only monitor and control one level. And worry about the other possibilities later.

The code gurus might have a view on this.

[Baer]

Hi all,

back from holidays So as I see siegmunds post has summarized the bugs you found well?

Please don't mind me to add a few requests/bugs:

• Personally I would prefer to place the button(s) at the bottom of the slider - Would are the others thinking?
• DMX dump does not recognize the overriden value, but it dumps the scene's one
• Bug where the monitoring slider jumps as soon as you click AUTO RST. Please have a look at the attached workspace to reproduce:
  1. Move a slider on the left
  2. Move the corresponding slider on the right
  3. Move the slider on the left again - slider right does not follow (as expected)
  4. Click AUTO RST on the slider on the right - the slider jumps immediately to the value provided by the channel on the left. This is not as expected (at least to me). I would expect the slider to jump after the next scene change.

Position of the buttons is a really little change and doesn't matter to me, just let me know what most of you want.

I think a have an idea why DMX dump stores the wrong values, should be no big problem to fix.

The other bug: i will have a look at it as soon as i got time, this week is creepy full of work, so will be delayed to next week maybe.

The options siegmund proposed for the settings I like, so if everyone agrees i will try to implement it as proposed.

[mlohrey]

Hey Matthias.

I while back you asked for some button designs. I thought I might give it ago. This is one for the auto-reset.

I haven't done this before so didn't know how big they should be or in what format.

Feel free to ignore them completely or if you want me to do some more work on them let me know.

Cheers

Mark

[shortylight]

Hi Matthias,

in my opinion you fit all our needs if you go on like proposed. I am looking forward to test the next version.

Have fun with the coding ...

Martin

[siegmund]

I while back you asked for some button designs. I thought I might give it ago. This is one for the auto-reset.

Thanks mlohrey, the icons look very promising! Just some suggestions: I would drop the transparency and only go with the arrow. In a normal state I would prefer to have the standard color of buttons in the virtual console (some sort of gray) to be consistent. And when active use one of your proposed colors.

@Baer I go with shortylight:

in my opinion you fit all our needs if you go on like proposed. I am looking forward to test the next version.

Just found one more thing to improve: If you are in the vc in edit mode, the buttons are somehow still clickable. Don't know if they have any effect but they just shouldn't be clickable at all.