Sliders in VC should be able to act like Simple Desk sliders, i.e. overriding the current cue level

[bleurose]

What I typically do when setting up a theatrical show in QLC+ is I build a virtual console on several pages that has sliders for all of my basic fixtures. This permits me to use the VC like a manual lighting board to control all the levels of all the fixtures. I assume people might say "why not use the Simple Desk" but there are two reasons:

1. The Simple Desk is NOT integrated in the VC operating mode and so sort of stands independent of it which makes it difficult to use while running cues in a cue list, etc.
2. Simple Desk doesn't "set up" nicely for me, it doesn't always put fixtues I want next to each other and doesn't let me "gang up" groups of fixtures. For instance, I might want all my cyc light RGB controls to be setttable from a single set of three RGB sliders, but to set the RGB levels of 8 cyc lights in simple desk means I have to set each one separately.

So using VC as a "virtual manual board" actually works quite nicely WHEN I AM SETTING INITIAL LEVELS.

What I do is use the VC manual mode to set levels for each scene and then record the scenes using DMX Dump. Then I put all the scenes into a chaser and create a cue list and that is where I start running my show.

Now comes the difficult part. I want to change some levels in a scene and modify the scene. I have a few choices, none of which are very good:

1. I can go to Simple Desk and make the changes and reDMX dump the entire scene. This is reasonable for a few minor changes, but again, if I want to change all the colors in a bunch of RGB fixtures, this becomes VERY frustrating. It also means I have to RESET the Simple Desk before going on to the next cue and if I forget, it can come back to haunt me if I record the NEXT change using settings that I didn't want.

2. I use blind mode to modify the scene itself but as I have noted in another feature request, this is cumbersome (and sometimes not reliable in 4.9.1).

3. I can use the VC manual board widgets/sliders to make changes BUT I can ONLY use these IF I AM INCREASING THE LEVELS! I.e., the cue level that is set in the VC cue list/chaser becomes a "minimum level" that I can't override. In regular lighting boards, I can use any slider on the board to override both UP and DOWN any level in a cue, but thise doesn't work on the sliders in QLC+.

I would like to see sliders in VC have either an option of a mode where I can use them to override any current cue level just like the sliders in Simple Desk so that they override both UP and DOWN. That way I could make adjustments in my virtual manual board without having to switch to Simple Desk and back. I could also use this to control gangs of controls (like all the RGB settings or speeds, etc.) with a single slider.

I think this is ONLY a "slider" option, it isn't very useful for buttons (because I can't modify the levels with a button anyway). It might even only be useful in LEVEL mode for a slider, not scene mode or submaster mode. But it would be a very valuable feature for adjusting levels from the VC while you are running a show.

[mjack]

I'm looking for the same function.

[ClubPetey]

I also would find this useful, but I could see a use for buttons as well. In the case of a button, it would perform a temporary override of the HTP/LTP setting and force the function's values into the channels, much like the simple desk does.

My use case for this would be something like a lightning effect over ambient color. To get a lightning effect, I want to cut to black momentarily, then to a color (ususaly white) and then back to black. THEN at the end of the function fade back to the color before the function started. As it stands now, I cannot do this because if I have sliders on the VC setting the ambient color, I cannot cut to black because the PARs are HTP and the slider act as a minimum value.

Having a mode where sequences and chasers could force-override the VC sliders would be super useful.

-pete

[shortylight]

Hi,

I also would like to ask for such a fader. It would be great help to use it to reduce or increase the level of

• a single channel,
• a group or
• a scene.

With a reset which returns to the value which is defined by the active scene or effect in a configurable time the function would be perfect as this would be a smooth transition instead of a hard one.

My case is the use of QLC+ in dance shows and musicals in the theatre. As amateur dancers and children take part in the show, it sometimes happens that they do not reach the right position on stage which is stressed by a spot light for example. To be able to reduce the intensity of the spot via fader in such a case would be a big help, as you do not have the time for live editing of the scene.

I know that this is not easy to implement, but it could be a great new feature (in QLC+ version 5) especially for live use of QLC+.

Regards Martin

[omar86]

Nice idea!!

[mlohrey]

Having a special slider would be great for theatre and making adjustments on the fly and, as been mentioned, it is quite difficult to do this live via the live edit process. Although an advantage of live edit is that the required change will be saved for the next show.

It would need to be linked to the 'monitor the selected channels and update the slider level' somehow so that when the slider is adjusted (up or down) the level starts from the level specified in the cue and you don't get a sudden jump.

[siegmund]

I already thought about such a feature, too. The problem is, what to do after a specific value has been modified. So lets stick to this theatre example:

Enable scene which is setting intensity channel - let's say it sets the intensity to 223.
Adjust intensity with a sort of "overriding" slider to maybe 102.
As soon as the scene is over and the next scene should come up (so another intensity value is applied), what should we do now?
A) Reset the "overriding" slider -> so the intensity value jumps back to 223, then fade from 223 to the next intensity value --> bad, because jump in intensity
B) Do not reset the "overriding" slider, hold intensity at 102 --> Here is the question when should we actually take the "overriding" slider into account and when not? When/How do we reset this slider?
C) Fade directly from 102 to the new intensity --> This could be very tricky to implement.

Maybe we can discuss these options (or add some), but I think none of them is a good practice or consistent...

[omar86]

I think the C option is the best one..

[shortylight]

Hi,

first of all thanks for all the response. Option "C" is quite the same idea as my suggestion for a manual reset. So option "C" is my favorite, too. I can imagine that it will be tricky to implement this, as you

• need to get a trigger when the new scene starts,
• need to know the new value of the related channel(s),
• need to know the fade in time of the new scene.

On base of this you could do the "reset" as a faded transition between the value of the "overriding" slider and the new scene's channel value. The time for the transition could be the same time as the fade in time of the scene. A manual reset would start the same kind of transition just with a predefined time and the last value of the channel(s) before "overriding" as the target value.

Maybe this helps. I am looking forward to this new feature!

Regards Martin

[mlohrey]

In some other lighting software I have used, the approach to this is issue is pretty straight forward and basically the same behaviour that you would see in simple desk.

If you choose to over-ride a channel then that value persists until you clear the change.

My recommendation would be to have a slider that monitors the output of the channel and then if the operator chooses to adjust that level the slider turns red, as in done in the simple desk, and then has a button that clears the change and returns the channel to the level specified by the running cue. (I guess a fade could be incorporated here)

And then... a really nice feature would be able to save that level to the active scene (maybe with a button on the slider), effectively updating the scene. In my (limited) experience of doing lighting for theatre shows, especially during dress rehearsals and pre-peformances, the ability to make a small change and then save it to the scene for the next performance is really useful. This can be done in live edit I know, but sometimes that takes too long. At the moment, I scribble down my changes and then have to remember make the change to the scene at the end of the show. Relying on my memory or scribble notes is not a good thing.

I have no idea how hard this is to program and I really appreciate the people with the talent and the know-how who have created a really great bit of lighting software.

[siegmund]

My recommendation would be to have a slider that monitors the output of the channel and then if the operator chooses to adjust that level the slider turns red, as in done in the simple desk, and then has a button that clears the change and returns the channel to the level specified by the running cue. (I guess a fade could be incorporated here)

In this case we need to determine: Where does this fade come from? How long should we fade? This is very complicated and not really intuitive.
My suggestion would be to have either a button to deactivate as in the simple desk and the value jumps back (not my favorite, because I don't like jumps) or just fade from the overriding value to the value of the next scene as soon as the next scene is applied.

So let's get a bit more precise.

The request is about a new form of a slider. This slider could look like this:

slider.png (3.71 KiB) Viewed 64389 times

Normally the slider acts as a level slider with the "Monitor the selected channels and update the slider level"-option is enabled. If you press the button "override active" it gets another color and the highest priority for the selected channels and overrides every other value sent by scenes or something.

In the sliders' properties there can be two options:
[ ] Override the selected channels as long as the "override active" button is activated
[ ] Stop overriding and fade to the new value if a new scene is applied to the selected channels
--> These two options should be exclusive

This should cover all use cases we discussed before.

Maybe one of the developers could comment, how complicated this is to implement, what further details are needed or what problems could arise, which we are not aware of at the moment.

[mlohrey]

May I add an idea or two?

Sorry for my poor drawing ability

I imagined the slider behaviour would be very much like simple desk. If the slider is moved from the monitored value it would turn red to indicate that it has taken control. Also, it would be useful to have a visual representation of the original cue level in the slider. (this would be handy in simple desk as well). It would mean that it would be possible to manually return the slider to the old cue value before releasing it and avoid jumps. I don't like them either.

If it isn't too hard to program, a property of the slider might be fade time so that if the slider is released returning to the monitored value would be predicable. Sometimes you want a level to persist across several cues so triggering a change when a cue step is triggered would be undesirable.

Lastly, in my slider three, if there was an option to update (tick) the value to the active scene then clicking it would save the level and release the slider and the scene is now updated.

I thought that perhaps a different type of frame (analogous to solo frames... sort of) might be an easy way to differentiate this slider type from the usual one. I coloured my blue for this effect.

Slider one: Shows the slider monitoring the current level
Slider two: Slider is raised and overrides the current level (this could be down as well)
Slider three: Tick button is clicked and level saved to an active scene as determined by the cue list and slider returns to monitoring the cue level.

slider_mark.png (6.25 KiB) Viewed 64372 times

[siegmund]

Very good ideas - I really love the "monitoring" part!

Sometimes you want a level to persist across several cues so triggering a change when a cue step is triggered would be undesirable.

Indeed, sometimes you want to have this behavior. But also sometimes you want to have the next scene in control. Have a look at the following example:

Scene 1:
R: 255
G: 255
B: 0

Scene 2:
R: 0
G: 0
B: 255

If you adjust the value of R in scene 1 to 200, this would lead to have the output of (200,0,255) instead of (0,0,255) after scene 2 is triggered.
So my suggestion would be to offer the ability to choose in which way the slider should behave in its properties.

With the other things, I completely agree with you!

[Baer]

Would be a real nice feature would love to have it.

Can someone summarize the complete idea.
All intendend behaviours
Which slider modes should be affected (i guess only level mode)?

I think i have some freetime over the next two weeks, so with a concrete summary what to implement i can see if i can come up with some prototype.

To clarify: I'm not an official developer of qlcplus, i can implement but there is no guarantee that this will be included in any official release.

[siegmund]

Hey Matthias,

thank you for your offer!

I'll try to summarize:

We desire for a new type of slider. Normally, this slider should behave exactly like a slider in level mode with the "Monitor the selected channels and update the slider level"-option enabled. Maybe we could make sliders, which have this option enabled, by default behave the way we desire, but we should check beforehand if this breaks backwards compatibility!

About the slider's appearance, please have a look at mlohrey's inspiring post:

I imagined the slider behaviour would be very much like simple desk. If the slider is moved from the monitored value it would turn red to indicate that it has taken control. Also, it would be useful to have a visual representation of the original cue level in the slider. (this would be handy in simple desk as well). It would mean that it would be possible to manually return the slider to the old cue value before releasing it and avoid jumps. I don't like them either.

If it isn't too hard to program, a property of the slider might be fade time so that if the slider is released returning to the monitored value would be predicable. Sometimes you want a level to persist across several cues so triggering a change when a cue step is triggered would be undesirable.

Lastly, in my slider three, if there was an option to update (tick) the value to the active scene then clicking it would save the level and release the slider and the scene is now updated.

Slider one: Shows the slider monitoring the current level
Slider two: Slider is raised and overrides the current level (this could be down as well)
Slider three: Tick button is clicked and level saved to an active scene as determined by the cue list and slider returns to monitoring the cue level. [This should be discussed before implementing]

png by mlohrey

slider_mark.png (6.25 KiB) Viewed 64347 times

So this leads to the following functional requirements:

• As soon as the slider is moved, it turns red and takes absolute control (highest priority) over the selected channels
• In the sliders' properties there are two options:
  • [ ] Override the selected channels until the "x" knob is pressed
  • [ ] Stop overriding and fade to the new value if a new scene is applied to the selected channels
  --> These two options should be exclusive
• The sliders stays active (red & in full control of the selected channels), until:
  • If option 1 is enabled in the properties: Active until the "x" knob is pressed
  • If option 2 is enabled in the properties: Active until another scene is applied, which changes one of the selected channels
  --> After this, the slider is no more red and has no more the highest priority, so the channels' value turns back to the scene which is specifying them

The following I consider optional, but really nice to have:

• The middle of the slider shows the currently monitored value
• In the properties, there is an option to specify a fade time, which is applied after the slider loses control. A bonus would be to connect this to the speed dial widget, so one can apply this to a speed dial widget and control the fade time with it (this could be really hard to implement but would be very nice feature)

What I think is really problematic and should be discussed:

• There is an "✓" Symbol at the bottom of the slider, which writes the actual value of the slider to the active scene.
  --> The problem here is to determine, which scene we should write to. Often, there are different scenes active, and also different scenes which have an impact at the selected channels. A possible solution could be a popup-dialog to choose a scene to write to, if there is more than one scene active.

So if I forgot anything, please add it or let me know if I got some of your ideas wrong or you don't agree.

@Bear: If you want me something to test, please let me know!

[shortylight]

Hi,

thank you for the summary, it seems to be complete.

I see problems with the "save to szene" feature, too. To make this work properly, you not only have to determine which scenes are affected, but also to see if the scene as a whole is dimmed or not. This could lead to a lot of work. Maybe it is easier just to save that new situation as DMX dump to a new szene if needed ?

There is one additional thing I would like to mention, but probably everyone is aware of it. All faders, button and knobs should be controllable remotely by extrnal devices. The BCF 2000 would be an interesting device for controlling such a fader!

@Bear: I could offer testing, too.

Regards Martin

[mlohrey]

Thanks for making the summary, it looks very accurate.

I agree that saving to a scene is problematic. The DMX dump option seems viable.

I did some testing today, experimenting with dumping the DMX of the adjusted scene into the running scene and it works quite well. Obviously at this stage you can only make adjustments to higher values.

In the current arrangement, it takes too long to do this for a live scenario. The current processes requires

1. Click to select "Dump DMX values to a Function" (some options such as Dump selected channels and dump only non-zero values persist from previous selections)
2. Click to select "Select a function to over write'
3. Click to select "Running functions"
4. Select the function you wish to use. Sometimes a click or two depending on your folder structure
5. Click OK

An option, to quickly over write a scene with the adjusted scene would be great. A single button to get you point 2/3 above. Once the scene was over written, the adjusted slider could return from red to its original colour as scene will be updated.

I also wondered whether simple desk adjusted values might also be dumped as this would allow you to dump a lower channel value. It works quite well for an increase in a channel value. The live scene remains exactly the same once you have dumped the scene and removed the simple desk change. However, for lower values, if you reset simple desk after dumping the values, the scene changes to the original. I thought perhaps the scene didn't over write correctly but if you reload the scene you can see that change was made.

[Baer]

Thank you all for the summaries.

For the prototype i thought giving the slider an additional mode with this behavior would be the best way not to disturb the current behaviour.
Also for the first version i would like to postpone the save option (or implement it in a way that only one scene can be active), because determining from two or more sceens seems to be very error prone.

I have one more question regarding your term highest priority.
Should we take GrandMaster and Submaster into account on this slider or not?

[siegmund]

There is one additional thing I would like to mention, but probably everyone is aware of it. All faders, button and knobs should be controllable remotely by extrnal devices. The BCF 2000 would be an interesting device for controlling such a fader!

This should definitely be the case, but is ensured by defining only a new slider type - so you could still set an external input for the slider in the general tab of the properties.

An option, to quickly over write a scene with the adjusted scene would be great. A single button to get you point 2/3 above.

I agree - some sort of "shortcut" should be easier to implement

Should we take GrandMaster and Submaster into account on this slider or not?

IMO definitely yes! We just want to adjust the specific channel(s) in a live situation, this should take Sub-/Grandmasters into account.

[Baer]

Good news regarding our feature.

I did some implementations today and came up with some kind of prototype.

Overriding the Channels value itself works perfect, but enable and disable is currently hardcoded in source code.
Hopefull i can make the overridemode switchable tomorrow, then i will push it on my git repo for everyone hows interested to test it.