Urgent Need for Help

mcallegari · Sun May 03, 2015 12:09 pm

Again, I tested your project on Windows 7 and a Enttec Pro MK2 and it works fine on QLC+ 4.8.5.

I asked you 3 questions that you haven't answered, so if you want our help please be cooperative.
Furthermore, have you tried to test with the adapter plugged in but no DMX cable connected ? There might be some disturbance on your DMX line causing the MK2 to misbehave.

EBDS · Sun May 03, 2015 3:39 pm

OK first of all let me say that the issue with the OFF button not staying on was a minor one. I actually tried setting the channel value to 1 instead of 0 and it worked then. I have found that with other buttons as well. Sometimes they don't seem to work with the channel set to a zero value but they'll work fine as soon as anything but zero is specified. Don't quite understand that but it's a minor inconvenience for me. That's not to say I would not like to understand that. Setting the value to 1 means it does not go completely off when I press that button.

The real issue is that when the problem is occurring functions won't turn off when the button is released. In other words, as an example, I hit a button for strobe. The strobe turns on, then I hit the button again to turn it off and it just keeps going. The strobe button is just an example. There are a whole bunch of buttons that do the same thing. The button looks like it turned off but the function doesn't stop and I can't get control of that fixture anymore.

I am a computer systems consultant for a living so I do know a thing or two about troubleshooting. Here's what I know so far:

1. Right now I am using 4.8.4 on Windows 8.1 Pro and everything is working perfectly. That leads me to believe that I don't really have anything programmed wrong. The USB adapter works fine and the lights do everything they are supposed to.
2. If I do nothing but upgrade to 4.8.5 all the problems come back.
3. Testing without the lights is counter-productive because of how the issues surface. If I test without the lights I will see the buttons coming on and off and think it's working but the lights will not actually be doing what they're suppose to.
4. If I was having DMX interference of any kind I should see it no matter what release of Windows or QLC+ I am testing with. Why does the current Windows 8.1 system with 4.8.4 work perfectly.
5. Another thing I find curious is that once I upgrade to 4.8.5 and the problem starts, even if I re-install 4.8.4 the problem is still there. The only way to fully resolve the problem is to completely restore my OS image to it's original condition. It's as if installing 4.8.5 does something to my system that isn't corrected by re-installing 4.8.4. Even if 4.8.5 closed some issue and my programming was incorrect in some way, why would the problem not go away when I re-installed 4.8.4.
6. The same observations are made whether I am running a Windows 7 system or a Windows 8 system. However, since the only system that works entirely correct for me right now is my current Windows 8 system, testing with Windows 7 has not really shed any light on the issue.
6. I have found that the problem does not occur with all fixtures in my show. It only happens with Chauvet 4Bar TRI fixtures and Chauvet Intimidator Scan 300 LED fixtures. I have other fixtures (EZPAR 56, Storm FX RGB, Quad Phase) that don't ever seem to be involved with the problem. Again, from that observation, I would normally assume there is something wrong with my programming of those fixtures. However, with my current system described above they are working perfectly.

I believe I have now answered all questions. As stated above, testing with or without the adapter without lights doesn't tell me if it's working or not. If I can see the buttons actually not coming on or off then it's easy to know they're not working. But when the buttons 'appear' to be doing something I can't tell if it's working without having at least one light connected to the adapter. And no I don't have any other adapters. The Enttec is almost brand new and I don't have any problem if I don't do anything to the system I am currently running.

mcallegari · Sun May 03, 2015 4:22 pm

You keep on thinking we can read your mind.
You mentioned the OFF button issue, and we tested that, without reproducing any issue at all (either Windows 7 or 8.1)

Now the indication is "Sometimes they don't seem to work with the channel set to a zero value but they'll work fine as soon as anything but zero is specified."

"Sometimes" ? "the channel" ? "anything but zero" ?

If you are a computer systems consultant, you probably understand that those are a very unprecise report of an issue.
So, again, if you want our "urgent" help, you need to be very specific.
Tell us which button to press, the exact steps to reproduce sistematically an issue. Otherwise we're catching ghosts.

By the way, are you aware that version 4.8.5 brought some change in the LTP channels behaviour ? For example, a strobe channel is LTP. So when you stop a function controlling a strobe channel, it will not go back to 0, as per the definition of LTP.

EBDS · Sun May 03, 2015 6:34 pm

OK Let me first clarify that since I was able to restore a full image in which everything seems to be working, this is not urgent anymore. I will change the title.

OK so let me try again to outline what has happened.

Here is issue number 1 when trying to use 4.8.5 or going back to 4.8.4 after trying 4.8.5.

1. I turn on my show.
2. In the 4BAR Tri (Both) window I hit let's say "Medium" for brightness. The button is highlighted.
3. In that same window, I hit the button for, let's say PGM 12. The built in program begins and the PGM 12 button is highlighted.
4. Then in the same window again I hit the PGM 12 button again to turn it off. The highlighting goes away like I would expect but PGM 12 keeps running. In my current working system it stops running.
5. The same things happen with other button presses in the 4BAR TRI windows and the Intimidator Scan 300 windows. The button go on and off but when turned off the function does not stop.

You have told me something about strobing that I did not know. I have no problem admitting that I am a very new user of QLC+. I don't even know yet what LTP is so I will have to research that.

Ok so not for the 'zero' issue.

1. In my 4BAR TRI windows I have brightness buttons. I will only talk about the OFF button.
2. I have a scene for OFF in which the Dimmer channel is enabled and the value is set to zero.
3. When I click the OFF button it is not highlighted like I am expecting.
4. If I change the scene such as the channel value is now 1 instead of 0 and then press the OFF button it is highlighted.
5. I have found this same issue with other buttons where a 90 value for the enabled channel does not work with respect to highlighting the button when pressed. However for the sake of clarity we can just focus on that one button. Incidentally that is the same problem I originally described with the Quad Phase OFF button. Once I changed the channel value from 0 to 1 the button highlighting worked.

I want to add that in my original post in the very first paragraph I typed I described the problem as being more than just an OFF button press issue. So I am not adding more issues. I am just adding more information regarding the original issues described in my first post. But as I said, since I now have a working configuration at least, this is not Urgent anymore. But I do need to understand what's going on so I don't end up frozen with just the system I have now and no ability to move forward.

If I have not described the issues clearly now then I don't know what you're looking for. I am no expert on this program, in fact a complete novice. I am doing the best I can to describe the issues. I am not trying to be difficult with anyone. I need your help and I am trying to provide the info you are asking for the best that I can.

I have not heard any reasonable explanation of why when I re-install 4.8.4 after having issues with 4.8.5 the issues do not go away. Only a full system restore returns operation to normal. That seems to me to mean that 4.8.5 is changing code or registry values or something else that are not getting set back when re-installing 4.8.4. I even tried completely uninstalling QLC and then re-installing 4.8.4 and it still didn't work until I did a full system restore.

Rob

mcallegari · Mon May 04, 2015 4:53 pm

Just tried. I went into operate mode, pressed on button "Medium" of "4BT-L dimmer" frame, then "Pgm 12" of "4BT-L-Color" frame.
Then turned Pgm 12 off.

All works as expected. The Pgm 12 is not running...as you supposed.

Since Pgm 12 acts on a Effect channel, this is a LTP misunderstanding. As I mentioned before, LTP channels stay on the last value they have been set. When you deactivate the "Pgm 12" button, you're not actually setting any new value on that channel, so it stays on the last value. LTP means in fact "Latest takes precedence" (http://www.qlcplus.org/docs/concept.html#LTP)
HTP channels, instead are reset to 0 when a function is stopped, cause they are intensity channels that usually turn lights on.

If the 4.8.4 behaviour was different, then it was wrong.

Since you use Solo Frames, I suggest to add on each of them a "Reset" button (or "Off"), which will set all the LTP channels to 0. In this way you are sure you will be in a "clean" state.
In general, it's a good practice to have them as a parachute if something goes wrong and you've lost track of the current status of your lights.

As for 4.8.5 to 4.8.4 I have no explanation for that. If you correctly uninstall 4.8.5 before installing 4.8.4, the system should be clean. (cause uninstalling also removes all the QLC+ keys from the Windows registry)

EBDS · Mon May 04, 2015 7:32 pm

I am a little confused. You say that PGM 12 is an LTP function and won't turn off by just clicking it off (even though that's exactly what it's doing right now for me) yet you say when you clicked it off the function stopped. I am sure I am probably misinterpreting you but it seems like your statements contradicted each other.

I will take your advice regarding reset buttons. I have a question regarding them however. If I switch from say PGM 12 which is a scene only using one particular channel to RED which is a scene using only a completely different channel, what happens to the channel that PGM 12 was using. In the RED scene that channel is not enabled. So should it go off? I have only the channels I am using enabled in each scene. Is that the correct way to do it? Obviously I still have a lot to learn.

Any explanation as to why certain scenes that set one enabled channel to zero won't highlight when clicked in Virtual Console but with any value other than zero they will?

In my fixture definitions I changes some effect channels to intensity channels. I think it was because that seemed to correct some problems with buttons highlighting when clicked. Could that be causing any of these problems with the buttons? I am starting to think maybe I should start a new show with all new scenes and virtual console. It would be a lot of work but I don't know if I have messed anything up with my fixture or scene definitions. There must be a reason I am having problems other people are not having. I sure would like to find that reason so I can move with 4.8.5 and a working show.

plugz · Tue May 05, 2015 1:12 pm

I am a little confused. You say that PGM 12 is an LTP function and won't turn off by just clicking it off (even though that's exactly what it's doing right now for me) yet you say when you clicked it off the function stopped. I am sure I am probably misinterpreting you but it seems like your statements contradicted each other.

It's a FUNCTION affecting an LTP CHANNEL.
There's no such thing as an "LTP FUNCTION".

I will take your advice regarding reset buttons. I have a question regarding them however. If I switch from say PGM 12 which is a scene only using one particular channel to RED which is a scene using only a completely different channel, what happens to the channel that PGM 12 was using. In the RED scene that channel is not enabled. So should it go off?

An HTP channel will go off.
And LTP channel won't.

I have only the channels I am using enabled in each scene. Is that the correct way to do it?

I don't know, it depends on what you are trying to achieve.
If you want the channels affected by the previous scene to go back to 0, then no, it is not the correct way to do it.

Obviously I still have a lot to learn.

http://qlcplus.org/docs/concept.html
http://qlcplus.org/docs/index.html

Any explanation as to why certain scenes that set one enabled channel to zero won't highlight when clicked in Virtual Console but with any value other than zero they will?

The correct behavior for this is in 4.8.5:
An LTP channel set to 0 will allow the scene to keep running.
An LTP channel set to 1-255 will allow the scene to keep running.
An HTP channel set to 0 will not allow the scene to keep running, because it has no effect at all.
An HTP channel set to 1-255 will allow the scene to keep running.

In my fixture definitions I changes some effect channels to intensity channels. I think it was because that seemed to correct some problems with buttons highlighting when clicked. Could that be causing any of these problems with the buttons?

YES

Also please share your fixture definitions when your share your workspace file, because your workspace file is not complete as-is.

I am starting to think maybe I should start a new show with all new scenes and virtual console. It would be a lot of work but I don't know if I have messed anything up with my fixture or scene definitions. There must be a reason I am having problems other people are not having. I sure would like to find that reason so I can move with 4.8.5 and a working show.

You don't have to start from scratch, it should still be possible to understand & fix everything.

mcallegari · Tue May 05, 2015 1:42 pm

Thanks David...I was starting to loose every hope on this thread.
I believe it is time for me to do a LTP/HTP video tutorial, to wipe away all the confusion the topic created in the last 2 years

EBDS · Tue May 05, 2015 2:18 pm

Thanks to all. I can't say everything is perfectly clear in my mind yet but I can see how maybe when I first created my fixtures and show I did not do everything correctly and probably caused some of my own problems. I am going to re-create the scenes for just one of the fixtures that I have been having problems with, I will check the definitions for that fixture as well, and then see if I can get the correct behaviors using 4.8.5. Once I have had a chance to digest what I've learned from you all and done some testing I can come back with specific questions.

I do still have one question based on reading your response to me:

You say that with an LPT channel a value of 0 will let the channel continue to run and a value of 1-255 will let the channel continue to run. That covers all DMX values. Then how do I get the channel to stop running?

plugz · Tue May 05, 2015 2:32 pm

You say that with an LPT channel a value of 0 will let the channel continue to run and a value of 1-255 will let the channel continue to run. That covers all DMX values. Then how do I get the channel to stop running?

This has to be clear in your head : a FUNCTION is not a CHANNEL.

You talk about channels everywhere, please try to slow down a bit

And for your question:
The answer I gave was regarding THAT specific question:

Any explanation as to why certain scenes that set one enabled channel to zero won't highlight when clicked in Virtual Console but with any value other than zero they will?

The question is (as I understand it): "I have a button connected to a function that sets a channel to 0. Why don't the button hightight when I click on it ?"

The answer is: "As this is an HTP channel and the value is 0, this scene won't be able to keep running, because is has no effect a all on anything. So the scene runs for 1 tick and then stops"

If the button is connected to a scene that sets an HTP channel to 1-255 or an LTP channel to 0-255 (yes, this covers the whole range

), then the scene is able to run forever, and the button will highlight. (the scene IS ABLE TO run forever does not mean the scene WILL run forever !)

EBDS · Wed May 06, 2015 4:29 pm

Thank you very much for your explanations. Although I have started reading the manual and it is quite good, the explanations are of course generic while your explanations are actually answering my specific questions.

I have bitten the bullet and installed 4.8.5 and I am building my entire show from scratch. I am using my Windows 8.1 Pro system to do this. I am trying to take into account HTP and LTP.

I have a couple of more specific questions:

You told me to define a RESET button to turn things off. I am trying to do that. Here is what I have in my virtual console:

1. A slider connected to the master dimmer channels of both of my Chauvet 4Bar fixtures.
2. Some program and color buttons for those fixtures in a Solo frame.
3. A reset button that enables all the fixture channels and sets them to 0. This is also in the solo frame.

At first when I hit the RESET button the dimmer channels would not be reset. I assume this is because they are HTP and the slider was still up.

I changed the dimmer channels to Effects channels in an effort to make them LTP. This seemed to work. Now when I hit the reset button the dimmer channels reset.

I also have a slider connected to the strobe function channel of both fixtures.

So here are my specific questions:

1. Am I doing any harm to the proper functioning of the system to have changed the dimmer channels from Intensity to Effects so that they would reset with my reset button?

2. Although the channel values reset the sliders don't reset. Is there any way to get the actual slider button to move with the DMX value rather than staying in one fixed position? If not is there a better way to do that than a slider?

3. Is it documented anywhere which channel types are HTP and which are LTP?

Thanks,
Rob

UPDATE: I just found the answer to question 2. I love that the sliders have an option to move with the DMX value.

plugz · Thu May 07, 2015 11:24 am

1. Am I doing any harm to the proper functioning of the system to have changed the dimmer channels from Intensity to Effects so that they would reset with my reset button?

It's getting hard to follow, would you share your WIP workspace file + associated fixture definitions ?

3. Is it documented anywhere which channel types are HTP and which are LTP?

Yes:
http://qlcplus.org/docs/channeleditor.html

EBDS · Thu May 07, 2015 4:38 pm

I have attached my work space and all fixture definitions. Some of the fixtures are not even in the work space yet but I plan to use them. A couple I had to create myself since they didn't exist in the database.

While you're checking it out, I created a slider for the dimmers for the EZpar 56 fixtures. I turned on the Monitor function for the slider like I did for the 4Bar's so that the slider would adjust with DMX values. But unlike the other which worked fine, this one doesn't work with that option turned on. Something is fighting it and it goes back to 0 no matter what I do. Turning off that option allows it to work but then it doesn't reset when I hit my reset button. If you could see what's wrong there I sure would appreciate it.

I appreciate that you're willing to take the time to help me very much. I have not tried to be difficult with my explanations. Sometimes I don't even know the terminology to use as you've seen. And I haven't gotten through that much of the manual yet because I have limited time since I work full time at one career and then run an entertainment company every weekend. So any suggestions you are willing to make that would help my show be better orchestrated would be greatly appreciated. I haven't even gotten to trying to program my scanners or moving heads yet.

Rob

plugz · Fri May 08, 2015 7:41 pm

Thanks, I've had a quick look at your workspace file.
The "Monitor Channel" mode on a Level Slider will transform it into a pure monitoring slider.
This means you can't use it for control.

For what you want to achieve, I have two propositions:
You can have 2 Level Sliders, one for monitoring, one for control. (ugly)
OR
Check the solo frame trick in the attached workspace. (ugly too

) I can explain it if you want me to.

EBDS · Fri May 08, 2015 9:39 pm

I will try your modified workspace. However, with my 4Bar fixtures I am using a slider to control the dimmer (although set in fixture definition as Effects channel) and I can both use the slider to control the dimmer and have the monitor function on and it changes back to the zero level when I hit the reset button. So how come I can do it with that fixture but not the EZpar fixture?

EBDS · Fri May 08, 2015 9:39 pm

EBDS wrote:I will try your modified workspace. However, with my 4Bar fixtures I am using a slider to control the dimmer (although set in fixture definition as Effects channel) and I can both use the slider to control the dimmer and have the monitor function on and it changes back to the zero level when I hit the reset button. So how come I can do it with that fixture but not the EZpar fixture?

I am looking at what you sent me and at first it seemed to do exactly what I wanted. However the slider is not assigned to anything. Am I looking at something wrong?

plugz · Sat May 09, 2015 9:14 am

I will try your modified workspace. However, with my 4Bar fixtures I am using a slider to control the dimmer (although set in fixture definition as Effects channel) and I can both use the slider to control the dimmer and have the monitor function on and it changes back to the zero level when I hit the reset button. So how come I can do it with that fixture but not the EZpar fixture?

Hmm you're right. Probably something to do with HTP/LTP. I don't know which is supposed to be the correct behavior :/
As listed here: http://qlcplus.org/docs/vcslider.html the feature is still marked as "EXPERIMENTAL"

I am looking at what you sent me and at first it seemed to do exactly what I wanted. However the slider is not assigned to anything. Am I looking at something wrong?

The slider is connected to a function

A slider has 3 modes, see the vcslider documentation.

EBDS · Sat May 09, 2015 1:59 pm

Plugz, thank you so much. I have looked again I see what you've done and it actually works perfectly. Not only that but I have learned a lot from this exercise. I humbly appreciate you taking the time to show me these things. I feel like I've made some real progress in my understanding of some tricky parts of the program thanks to you.

Rob