I'm guessing this is a HTP/LTP issues again...
In my workspace, I have colour buttons in a solo frame to change between my RGB par cans colours, and I also have shutter buttons in a separate solo frame (left, right, strobe, LR auto chase etc). The problem in that I want to create flash buttons to bring all the dimmers to 100% and flash the lights a certain colour. Problem is these flash buttons are not over riding the colour buttons in the solo frame. IE, if I have green selected in the solo frame and I try and do a blue flash, green stays on, even though I have zero'd green out in the flash scene (HTP?).
Any solutions?
Joe
Make a flash button override settings
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Jano Svitok
Right, HTP is the cause.
I don't really have a solution for you now.
- You could put the flash buttons in the same frame as the color buttons, but then after flashing you'd have to start the color again... (keyboard shortcuts may make that easier)
- You could compile QLC+ with LTP colors, but 1. it's not that easy 2. you'd have the usual LTP problems (which may not be an issue here)
I don't really have a solution for you now.
- You could put the flash buttons in the same frame as the color buttons, but then after flashing you'd have to start the color again... (keyboard shortcuts may make that easier)
- You could compile QLC+ with LTP colors, but 1. it's not that easy 2. you'd have the usual LTP problems (which may not be an issue here)
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Joe
Argh! This and the issue of the flash buttons sticking are the last major issues standing in the way of my QLC+ Dreams.
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John Coles
We have encountered this issue too. It is as Jano said due to HTP. LTP would be a brilliant thing to get implemented as an option. We want to use it for a similar solution in a nightclub @Joe de max. We're really loving QLC+ but LTP is a really important option. There are many times where HTP is good and we're grinding through however having the option of LTP would be greatly appreciated.
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Joe
So I suppose what we need is LTP channels that do not always stick (as well as being able to choose in QLC how channels behave - possibly in VC?). A possible solution is flash buttons that override (LTP) only for the length of time they are held down, and then reset the channels to their previous values before the flash (Almost as if they where just a "Layer" on top of whatever else was going on with those channels).
Joe
Joe
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Joe
BTW - here's the work around i've been using for those of you trying to do a similar thing. I've created a "blackout" button in the solo frames for the chase and the chase colour settings. I've assigned them both to the same key, so when i want to do colour flashes, I hit the key to disable everything in the chase. It's still annoying as I still have to press 2 buttons to get the chase back on (and remember the chase and colour I was using for it).
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Joe
QLC+ 4.60! Another workaround is now possible. Put all your chases etc in a frame/solo frame, and add submaster inside that frame. Now when you want to do a flash, quickly bring down the submaster for the chases. Then when you are done with your flashes, bring it back up. The chase is still playing so you don't have to bring it back on. Still does not perfect, and still does not fix the fact you can flash multiple colours at once - BUT it is easier now.
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Joe
This is possibly the most convoluted way I can even imagine doing this, but thus far it's the best workaround I've had. Only works if you're using a midi keyboard. Put all your colour flashes inside a solo frame, and then assign them all to keys on the keyboard. Then put your colour selection for chase scenes inside another solo frame. Now put that solo frame inside a stack of regular frames (as many as you have colour flashes. Yes, stacked on on top of the other). Now put Submasters in each one of these frames. Set the submaster sliders to be inverted. Now, assign each submaster a key you used for your colour flashes. Now when you press a colour flash, at the same time it will bring a submaster all the way down at the same time, thus blinding any other colour from mixing. Because it is a momentary key rather than a slider, the second you release the flash key, the chase comes back.
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Michael Clements
The idea of being able to change HTP values into LTP is, I think, not the best way of dealing with the problems described. Being able to assign intensities as LTP (presumably in the fixture editor) is rather more elegant but in my opinion a major reworking of the flash functionality for buttons is required, unfortunately. (By the way, I'm impressed with the ingenuity of the workaround, Joe!)
The purpose of flash buttons as generally understood is to add to a set of values when pressed in normal mode and to replace one set of values with another in solo mode. Most importantly, the flash button should be able to restore the previous lighting state when released.
To accomplish this;
a) in a solo frame the effect of the flash button on HTP values needs to be changed
b) the flash button must be able to send some LTP values when released
I would like to propose the following scheme, which would enable the desired results to be attained (and quite a lot more besides) while preserving the HTP / LTP logic.
1) The flash button has an attached scene with fade in / out times.
2) In a normal frame, the flash button scene merges its HTP values with other HTP channels, as at present, but the fade in and out times of the scene are followed.
3) In a normal frame, the flash button scene sends its LTP values when the button is pressed, as at present.
4) When LTP values have been sent when the flash button is pressed, updated LTP values will usually need to be sent to the affected channels in scenes when the button is released. One could:
a) Sample and store the instantaneous values of the LTP channels in scenes that the flash button was about to change and sent these values when the button is released.
A flash button could then open and close shutters, start and stop gobo rotations and much else besides.
b) A more flexible option would be to associated a second scene with the button, edited in the usual way, but only its LTP values would be sent when the button was released. The trade off would be more flexibility at the expense of extra programming in many cases.
In some cases an existing scene could be used as the second flash button scene, saving some programming.
5) Chasers with LTP channels and EFX will move on while the flash button is pressed or after it is released (see 9) below) and will generated new LTP values so no additional LTP values need to be sent to these functions.
6 ) In a solo frame a flash button should, at its simplest, set all other HTP channels associated with currently running functions in the frame to zero when pressed.
We could have an option here to set a proportional reduction in the HTP values.
7) When the flash button is released, the previous HTP values for a scene (or several scenes in a collection) would be restored. Current instantaneous HTP values for running chasers would be used.
This is the same effect as using a submaster slider to bring HTP's to zero (or some other value) and restore them, plus starting and terminating the flash button scene as well, all with one press and release.
8) The fade in and fade out times of the flash button scene would be followed. The same times would used to fade the other intensities out and back in. I don't think it would be worth the hassle of making the fade options more complicated.
9) It would be useful if chasers and EFX in the solo frame could have an option to continue to run or to freeze while the flash button is pressed.
10) LTP values need to be sent to channels in scenes affected by the flash button when the button is released – options as in 4) above.
The purpose of flash buttons as generally understood is to add to a set of values when pressed in normal mode and to replace one set of values with another in solo mode. Most importantly, the flash button should be able to restore the previous lighting state when released.
To accomplish this;
a) in a solo frame the effect of the flash button on HTP values needs to be changed
b) the flash button must be able to send some LTP values when released
I would like to propose the following scheme, which would enable the desired results to be attained (and quite a lot more besides) while preserving the HTP / LTP logic.
1) The flash button has an attached scene with fade in / out times.
2) In a normal frame, the flash button scene merges its HTP values with other HTP channels, as at present, but the fade in and out times of the scene are followed.
3) In a normal frame, the flash button scene sends its LTP values when the button is pressed, as at present.
4) When LTP values have been sent when the flash button is pressed, updated LTP values will usually need to be sent to the affected channels in scenes when the button is released. One could:
a) Sample and store the instantaneous values of the LTP channels in scenes that the flash button was about to change and sent these values when the button is released.
A flash button could then open and close shutters, start and stop gobo rotations and much else besides.
b) A more flexible option would be to associated a second scene with the button, edited in the usual way, but only its LTP values would be sent when the button was released. The trade off would be more flexibility at the expense of extra programming in many cases.
In some cases an existing scene could be used as the second flash button scene, saving some programming.
5) Chasers with LTP channels and EFX will move on while the flash button is pressed or after it is released (see 9) below) and will generated new LTP values so no additional LTP values need to be sent to these functions.
6 ) In a solo frame a flash button should, at its simplest, set all other HTP channels associated with currently running functions in the frame to zero when pressed.
We could have an option here to set a proportional reduction in the HTP values.
7) When the flash button is released, the previous HTP values for a scene (or several scenes in a collection) would be restored. Current instantaneous HTP values for running chasers would be used.
This is the same effect as using a submaster slider to bring HTP's to zero (or some other value) and restore them, plus starting and terminating the flash button scene as well, all with one press and release.
8) The fade in and fade out times of the flash button scene would be followed. The same times would used to fade the other intensities out and back in. I don't think it would be worth the hassle of making the fade options more complicated.
9) It would be useful if chasers and EFX in the solo frame could have an option to continue to run or to freeze while the flash button is pressed.
10) LTP values need to be sent to channels in scenes affected by the flash button when the button is released – options as in 4) above.
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Joe
All I'd like to add to Michael's excellent post is (And some of this he may have already covered)
1. If a flash button is pressed in a solo frame that contains buttons attached to chasers, when I let go of the flash button is should go back to the chaser in that scene. The most important thing is that the chaser must have stayed in time (so the chase is still to the beat). I probably wouldn't put the flash buttons in the same solo as the chaser, but if I did that is the behaviour I would expect
2. Flash buttons should in theory always behave as LTP, even when controlling a HTP channel. For example - Channel A which is a HTP channel is at value 255. I have a flash button that is tied to a scene that is set at a value of 100. Even though I am controlling a HTP channel, the flash button should still set Channel A to 100 until I release that button.
3. If multiple flash buttons are in a solo frame, please don't let me press down multiple values. It just results in a nasty colour mixing mess that was not intended.
4. I agree with Michael, flash buttons should have fade in/fade out. Using other lighting controllers I'll often use small fade in and fade outs to give the flashes more of the feel of an incandescent lamp.
1. If a flash button is pressed in a solo frame that contains buttons attached to chasers, when I let go of the flash button is should go back to the chaser in that scene. The most important thing is that the chaser must have stayed in time (so the chase is still to the beat). I probably wouldn't put the flash buttons in the same solo as the chaser, but if I did that is the behaviour I would expect
2. Flash buttons should in theory always behave as LTP, even when controlling a HTP channel. For example - Channel A which is a HTP channel is at value 255. I have a flash button that is tied to a scene that is set at a value of 100. Even though I am controlling a HTP channel, the flash button should still set Channel A to 100 until I release that button.
3. If multiple flash buttons are in a solo frame, please don't let me press down multiple values. It just results in a nasty colour mixing mess that was not intended.
4. I agree with Michael, flash buttons should have fade in/fade out. Using other lighting controllers I'll often use small fade in and fade outs to give the flashes more of the feel of an incandescent lamp.
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Davey Daytona
hello everyone,
This is a very interesting discussion. I really like Michael's idea 4,b. kinda sounds like a midi concept like note on/off and i do like the concept of a flash being able to override an HTP value while pressed and then returning to its original function in step with the chase. So many solutions so little time.
This is a very interesting discussion. I really like Michael's idea 4,b. kinda sounds like a midi concept like note on/off and i do like the concept of a flash being able to override an HTP value while pressed and then returning to its original function in step with the chase. So many solutions so little time.
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Michael Clements
Hi Joe, Davey and other followers of this discussion,
Firstly to clarify Joe's points above:
1) Chasers continue to run in the correct timing (as far as I can tell) when a submaster is used to turn down HTP levels the so presumably it's reasonably easy to make a flash button do the same. I don't run music shows with the lighting synchronised to a click track so I don't know if the timing holds with the accuracy necessary for this use.
However, I definitely see a (theatrical) use for having an option to freeze a chaser or EFX while the flash button is pressed and continue to the next steps when its released.
2) In a solo frame the flash button would be able replace a 255 HTP with 100. In a normal frame the flash button would only increase HTP values which is the expected behaviour of a simple flash button.
Some additional general explanation:
It is important to bear in mind that HTP / LTP is primarily about how a channel behaves when it is sent values from several different functions running simultaneously. Replacing one set of HTP values with another set is just a crossfade between scenes and obviously the latest scene is then taking precedence over the previous scene – effectively LTP with HTP values, if that's not too confusing.
So, in effect, flash buttons in a solo frame would perform a crossfade between 2 scenes when pressed and back again when released. The submaster functionality needs to be incorporated, however, so that chasers and EFX can be faded by the flash button while they continue to run.
Firstly to clarify Joe's points above:
1) Chasers continue to run in the correct timing (as far as I can tell) when a submaster is used to turn down HTP levels the so presumably it's reasonably easy to make a flash button do the same. I don't run music shows with the lighting synchronised to a click track so I don't know if the timing holds with the accuracy necessary for this use.
However, I definitely see a (theatrical) use for having an option to freeze a chaser or EFX while the flash button is pressed and continue to the next steps when its released.
2) In a solo frame the flash button would be able replace a 255 HTP with 100. In a normal frame the flash button would only increase HTP values which is the expected behaviour of a simple flash button.
Some additional general explanation:
It is important to bear in mind that HTP / LTP is primarily about how a channel behaves when it is sent values from several different functions running simultaneously. Replacing one set of HTP values with another set is just a crossfade between scenes and obviously the latest scene is then taking precedence over the previous scene – effectively LTP with HTP values, if that's not too confusing.
So, in effect, flash buttons in a solo frame would perform a crossfade between 2 scenes when pressed and back again when released. The submaster functionality needs to be incorporated, however, so that chasers and EFX can be faded by the flash button while they continue to run.